RE: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (links to chain)

It’s great, Mike. A friend of Bella suggested a book of Ivanov “Ocherki po istorii semiotiki v SSSR”. There is a version on-line, seems to be reliable:
http://philologos.narod.ru/semiotics/ivanov_semio.htm

In chapter 2 “Analysis of deep structures of semiotic systems of art”, the names of Eisenshtein and Vygotsky (much more the first than the second) are quoted several times. But I couldn't translate yet (well, actually will not be a great translation...).

Vygotsky’s works quoted by Ivanov along the book are:

1 Выготский 1956: Л. С. Выготский. Мышление и речь. Избранные психологические исследования. М., 1956.
2 Выготский 1960: Л. С. Выготский. Развитие высших психических функций. Из неопубликованных трудов. М., 1960.
3 Выготский 1968: Л. С. Выготский. Психология искусства. Изд. 2. М., 1968.
(I think there are no quotes to Eisenstein by Vygotsky in these books, that I remember... The relationship must be conceptual, subtextual, but I can search for direct quotations too, later)

The number of Eisenshtein’s works quoted along Ivanov´s book is bigger than Vygotsky’s:

1 Эйзенштейн 1945: S. Eisenstein. Film form. Film sense. Ed. 2. NY, 1957.
2 Эйзенштейн 1966: С. М. Эйзенштейн. [Письмо Ю. Н. Тынянову]. – В кн.: «Юрий Тынянов. Писатель и ученый». М., 1966.
3 Эйзенштейн 1962: С. М. Эйзенштейн. Зараза моих теоретических положений. «Вопросы теории и истории киноискусства». М., 1962.
4 Эйзенштейн 1964 а, б, в: С. М. Эйзенштейн. Избранные произведения, т. 1, 2, 3. М., 1964.
5 Эйзенштейн 1966: С. М. Эйзенштейн. Избранные произведения, т. 4. М., 1966.
6 Эйзенштейн 1968: С. М. Эйзенштейн. Избранные произведения, т. 5. М., 1968.
7 Эйзенштейн 1969: Сб. «Броненосец Потемкин». М., 1969.
8 Эйзенштейн 1973: С. М. Эйзенштейн. «Капитал». – «Искусство кино», 1973, № 1.

(4, 5 and 6 are selected works, I can't know the actual titles of the texts quoted - I search for possible works in what Eisenstein quotes directly Vygotsky, I guess this occurs at Film form and/or Film sense, I don´t remember).

I will try to read Ivanov's contribution, as soon as I can - in order to find some more connections, "inner speach" seems to be an important common point.

Achilles.




> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 17:52:09 -0800
> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (links to chain)
>
> There are new leads in those passages from Khomskaya, which I had forgotten
> about, Achilles. I will try to follow up with friends in Moscow.
> mike
>
> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 5:30 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > (off topic)
> >
> > Note to my last post...
> >
> > 1) "M.I. Knebel", must be "M.O. Knebel" too - Maria Ossipovna (Iossifovna)
> > Knebel' (1898-1985)...
> >
> > 2) Luria and Knebel's text must be:
> >
> > * Кнебель М. И., Лурия А. Р. Пути и средства декодирования смысла.— Вопросы
> > психологии, 1971, № 4, с. 76—83.
> >
> > * Knebel' M. I., Luria A. R. Puty i sredstva dekodirovaniya smysla -
> > Voprosy psikhologii, 1971, N. 4, c. 76-83.
> >
> > * Knebel' M. I., Luria A. R. Ways and Means of decoding of sense. - Voprosy
> > psikhologii, 1971, N. 4, c. 76-83.
> >
> > I remove my questions about this dyad and this very interesting text, and
> > ask you only about Luria & Eisenstein's letters availability - thank you.
> >
> > Achilles
> >
> > > From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > Subject: RE: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (links to chain)
> > > Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 03:39:11 +0000
> > >
> > >
> > > Ok, thank you, Mike… I clearly understand your sugestion and agree.
> > >
> > > I collected two references to Eisenstein at Luria's biography by Evgenia
> > Homskaya… A book well known of you, but to me is a good surprise (I'm far
> > away from actual university tasks since 2000). After quote, I will ask
> > little questions in order to know where can I search better.
> > >
> > > Evgenia D. Homskaya: Alexander Romanovich Luria: A Scientific Biography.
> > Plenum Series in Russian Neuropsychology. New
> > York/Boston/Dordrecht/London/Moscow: Kluwer Academic/Plenum Publishers,
> > 2001.
> > >
> > > "An important event in Luria's private life also occurred during those
> > years in Kazan. He met his wife, Vera Nikolayevna Blagovidova, also a
> > student at the University of Kazan. Later, in Moscow, she became an actress
> > at the studio of the famous theatrical director, A. Y. Tairov. They got
> > married at the beginning of 1923 but their union lasted only ultil 1929. In
> > this relatively short period, however, Luria developed most of his artistic
> > interests in theater, painting, poetry, and so on. It was then that he
> > became acquainted with the master of the world's cinema, Sergei M.
> > EISENSTEIN."
> > >
> > > (Chapter 1. Childhood and Youth – p. 13)
> > >
> > > "During the 1940s Luria kept in close touch with the famous film director
> > S. M. EISENSTEIN, who made such masterpieces of world cinema as Potemkim and
> > Ivan The Terrible. Since becoming acquainted in the 1920s, Luria and
> > Eisenstein shareda a common interest in the psychology of art, and
> > psychological aspects of artistic expressiveness. Eisenstein was interested
> > very much in the phenomenon of the mnemonist Shereshevsky, studied by Luria.
> > In 1929, through Luria's recommendation, EISENSTEIN was introduced to Kurt
> > Lewin, with whom he discussed the problem of artistic expressiveness. At the
> > end of the 1920's, Luria organized at the Istitute of Cinematography to
> > execute various kinds of cinematic shooting for scientific purposes. In the
> > 1930s, Luria and EISENSTEIN continued to exchange letters. Their
> > correspondence continued during the Kharkov period and during the war. After
> > the war, and until EISENSTEIN's sudden death in 1948, they often met, shared
> > books, and talked. Under Luria's influence, EISENSTEIN wrote the articles
> > "Psychology of art" and "Lectures on the Psychology of Art" (see Eisenstein,
> > 1987, 1988-1996, 1998).
> > >
> > > The psychology of art was also a particular theme for Luria and Vygotsky
> > (see Vygotsky's book, the Psychology of Art, Moscow, 1982). In Luria's
> > background, this theme is not very well known, although its expressions were
> > very numeros and diverse. For example, his article written with the
> > well-known film director, M. I. Knebel, "Ways and Means of Semantic Coding"
> > (1971R), discussed verbal and nonverbal aspects of speech (mime, gestures)
> > and was important for both the psychology of speech and the psychology of
> > art."
> > >
> > > (Chapter 4, The Forties: World War II and the Rehabilitation
> > Hospital-Neuropsychology in the Making - p. 39)
> > >
> > > ******
> > >
> > > Well. I only ask you for these wonderful letters and for Luria's article
> > with M. I. Knebel – if it could give us some cues about what Luria think
> > about movies and about Eisenshtein's influence in his thinking about this as
> > well… In other hand, the articles of Eisenstein about "Psychology of Art"
> > seems to be the same quoted by Christie & Taylor (1993) published in Leyda
> > (ed.) "The Psychology of Composition" – this book is already available. Do
> > you think that can exist more than two papers requested to Eisenstein for
> > Luria? My copy here don´t have the actual references, and I don´t have the
> > book itself yet... And my option was to aquire Leyda edited Eisenstein's, by
> > the moment.
> > >
> > > All the titles I have are the following:
> > >
> > > * Eisenstein, "Psychology of Art", in Psycholgia
> > > Processov Chudojestvennogo Tvorchestva (Moscow, 1980), p. 195
> > > (quoted by JULIA VASSILIEVA in her paper "Eisenstein and his Method:
> > recent publications in Russia")
> > > and
> > > * "The psychology of composition" (211)
> > > * "The psychology of art" (211)
> > > * "The psychology of compositon" (same title... but another text - at
> > 249)
> > > (at the contents of Eisenstein, S.M. "The Eisenstein´s Collection".
> > Edited by Richard Taylor. Sagull Books, 2006)
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm seeing that I can not give meaninful contributions. I have made a
> > question, and now I only have some other questions to make again. I'll wait
> > for other XMCA contributions, by Mike and all the people when will be
> > possible. And I will continue search data where it are availlable to me here
> > and now. This was not my main goal today (I was thinking things about
> > psychology and mental health), but sometimes an action becomes an activity,
> > no?
> > > Thank you very much, and my best wishes,
> > > Achilles.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:43:02 -0700
> > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (links to chain)
> > > >
> > > > It would be great to get the info on Eisenshtein and LSV/ARL. The
> > > > entire Stanislavsy and beyond discussion is quite broad. Yrjo has
> > > > written on this topic.
> > > > mike
> > > >
> > > > On 10/31/08, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > On 10/31/08, Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> To add more two or three links to a chain-complex
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 1) About Luria and Eisenshtein: "Eisenstein planned two courses on
> > the
> > > > >> psychology of art at Luria's request, in 1940 and 1947 (both in
> > Leyda
> > > > >> (ed.)
> > > > >> "The Psychology of Composition")." (Christie & Taylor, 1993, p. 225
> > -
> > > > >> Endnote 87); I ask for an used edition at amazon, seems to be fine.
> > > > >> "Psychology of Composition" sounds like an interesting title and
> > subject
> > > > >> to
> > > > >> me, composing evoques spinozian concept of "joy".
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 2) About Eisenshtein and Stanislavsky similarity: there is a very
> > > > >> interesting note by Nikolai Veresov commenting Vygotsky's "genetic
> > law of
> > > > >> cultural development" explaining something about what they means by
> > > > >> "Category":
> > > > >>
> > > > >> "Category is the philosophical concept. How can one imagine that the
> > > > >> function exists as a category? Sounds strange, but according to
> > > > >> STANISLAVSKY
> > > > >> (famous theatre director Vygotsky used to know) AND Sergey
> > EISENSHTEIN
> > > > >> (filmmaker and a friend of Vygotsky) "category" in the drama means
> > > > >> "collision", "event", dramatic unit, and the unit of analysis of
> > drama:
> > > > >> it
> > > > >> might be a dialogue (mostly) or emotional explosion and so on.
> > Vygotsky
> > > > >> is
> > > > >> speaking about development as a process of events, collisions and
> > their
> > > > >> reflections in both planes." (N. VERESOV) (Caps mine)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Available at
> > http://webpages.charter.net/schmolze1/vygotsky/vygotsky.html
> > > > >> I don´t know the actual source yet - If there is a book or paper by
> > > > >> Verosov
> > > > >> about these matters. I will check.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 3) About Eisenshtein and Stanislavsky differences: Eisenshtein
> > seemed to
> > > > >> be
> > > > >> closer to Meyerhold than to Stanislavsky, the pome of Eris was
> > maybe
> > > > >> differences of emphasis in verbal or non-verbal components of the
> > actor's
> > > > >> play... but this stands only like um more question, not a secure
> > > > >> information. Seems that there was, at that time, some kind of fight
> > > > >> against
> > > > >> "verbalization" in theatre, in which Meyerhold was activily
> > envolved, but
> > > > >> the actual role of Eisenshtein in that dispute is nothing clear to
> > me.
> > > > >> Eisenstein movies seems to operate with some kind of "pictograms",
> > but
> > > > >> nothing to affirm about absolutily dispense "words", even like
> > "inner
> > > > >> speach" - must be something about this in his own writings, quoting
> > > > >> Vygotsky, I guess that I remember something like this in a work of a
> > > > >> filmmaker friend of mine, some talks with her. But it was a long
> > time
> > > > >> ago,
> > > > >> too. I remain in my thinking by complex, you know.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> What do you think about these links? There are something useful?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Thank you.
> > > > >> Achilles.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > > > >>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (a question)
> > > > >>> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 01:02:11 +0000
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Oh, it's great, Mike...
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Borges wrote a tale named "Funes..." recreating something of
> > > > >>> Shereshevsky... you know. So
> > > > >>> seems that there is very artistic features in real human psychic
> > > > >>> experience. About "generalized
> > > > >>> image" I will see... Is this concept at "Iazik i soznanie"? We have
> > a
> > > > >>> Portuguese version. I have
> > > > >>> read many years ago. I don't remember if I knew this concept , even
> > in
> > > > >>> another book. It
> > > > >>> occurs to me, right now, to search immediately something about what
> > > > >>> system
> > > > >>> of acting was
> > > > >>> used by Eisenstein's actors, if we can find any relation with
> > > > >>> Stanislavsky's system of creative
> > > > >>> actor's work... studied by Vygotsky discussed in the text from 1932
> > > > >>> (publish in Collected Woks,
> > > > >>> vol. 6 - prologue by Dot Robbins), and so important in 1934
> > (thought and
> > > > >>> word) with the
> > > > >>> notion of "subtext"... If you tell us about psychological studies
> > about
> > > > >>> audience, and the feelings
> > > > >>> and understanding of audience, the way that film is constructed and
> > > > >>> actor
> > > > >>> plays their roles
> > > > >>> must be interesting to study too. After all, all we must to act...
> > (as
> > > > >>> "akt", and as "postuk").
> > > > >>> I had think about the other way of mutual influences in dialog
> > > > >>> psychology-movie too: what we
> > > > >>> can learn from movie semiotics? And/or what about Eisenstein can
> > teach
> > > > >>> something to historical-
> > > > >>> cultural approach? For instance, the notion of "non-indifferent
> > > > >>> nature"...
> > > > >>> I'm thinking by complex,
> > > > >>> like ever I do. But now, it's the only way I can think. And these
> > are
> > > > >>> all
> > > > >>> links that I can put in the
> > > > >>> chain until now. And we even need a thesis and the young guy/girl
> > with
> > > > >>> it
> > > > >>> in mind - I hope this
> > > > >>> person can will arise soon in this context...
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I will see something about Eisenshtein and Stanislavsky, right now.
> > > > >>> What do you think? It can be useful?
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Thank very much, for all your contributions since before, since
> > many
> > > > >>> years
> > > > >>> ago.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Achilles.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:10:46 -0700
> > > > >>> > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > > >>> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > >>> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (a question)
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > Excellent question. Lets see what we can find out.
> > > > >>> > There are references in Eisenshtein's published work about his
> > > > >>> > activities
> > > > >>> > with
> > > > >>> > Shereshevsky, the mnemonist. And there is, I believe, a close
> > relation
> > > > >>> > between the idea of "generalized image" in Luria and
> > Eisenshtein's
> > > > >>> > notion of
> > > > >>> > montage.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > All we need is a bright young person with a thesis in mind and a
> > ghost
> > > > >>> > of
> > > > >>> > chance
> > > > >>> > of getting it done in this context.
> > > > >>> > mike
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > >>> > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > Greetings for all.
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > One more extemporaneous question.
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > If I'm not misremembering, in "Making mind", Mike Cole exposes
> > some
> > > > >>> > > very
> > > > >>> > > interesting data about Luria and Vygotsky's works with the
> > audience
> > > > >>> > > of
> > > > >>> > > Eisenshtein's movies, didn't he expose? Puzirey, I remember
> > well,
> > > > >>> > > has
> > > > >>> > > said
> > > > >>> > > something about Eisenshtein's reading of "Psychology of Art",
> > in the
> > > > >>> > > files
> > > > >>> > > of Eisenshtein's personal library was founded an exemplar of
> > the
> > > > >>> > > book,
> > > > >>> > > in
> > > > >>> > > which at several places are underlined the words "contend and
> > > > >>> > > form"...
> > > > >>> > > a
> > > > >>> > > basis for his own work has filmmaker. But, what more we can
> > know
> > > > >>> > > about
> > > > >>> > > those
> > > > >>> > > works with audience? Everything was loosed with War? Is there
> > no
> > > > >>> > > follower or
> > > > >>> > > co-worker that have dedicate even a single book or paper about
> > these
> > > > >>> > > researchs? I Have thinking about these questions since
> > 1991-1994
> > > > >>> > > when
> > > > >>> > > I had
> > > > >>> > > read the fragments that I quote here, and only now I can ask
> > for
> > > > >>> > > you.
> > > > >>> > > It's
> > > > >>> > > not my main subject now, but I'm concerning with it in a
> > personal
> > > > >>> > > way,
> > > > >>> > > and
> > > > >>> > > why not to ask for? Somebody can give me some help?
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > > Thank you very much for your attention and help.
> > > > >>> > > Achilles.
> > > > >>> > >
> > > > >>> > >
> > _________________________________________________________________
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Received on Sun Nov 2 19:04:50 2008