RE: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (links)

Well,

Excuse me, only more a single little addition:

These "various kinds of cinematic shooting for scientific purposes"
organized by Luria at the Institute of Cinematography, at the end of
the 1920's (mentioned by Khomskaia) are very interesting historical
sources too (if they survived in time, by any way) - related to
Eisenstein's aesthetical influences on making film or not. I guess
that to have any notice about that "cinematic shooting" could be
great too.

Thank you.

Achilles.



> From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> Subject: RE: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (links to chain)
> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 03:04:02 +0000
>
>
> It’s great, Mike. A friend of Bella suggested a book of Ivanov “Ocherki po istorii semiotiki v SSSR”. There is a version on-line, seems to be reliable:
> http://philologos.narod.ru/semiotics/ivanov_semio.htm
>
> In chapter 2 “Analysis of deep structures of semiotic systems of art”, the names of Eisenshtein and Vygotsky (much more the first than the second) are quoted several times. But I couldn't translate yet (well, actually will not be a great translation...).
>
> Vygotsky’s works quoted by Ivanov along the book are:
>
> 1 Выготский 1956: Л. С. Выготский. Мышление и речь. Избранные психологические исследования. М., 1956.
> 2 Выготский 1960: Л. С. Выготский. Развитие высших психических функций. Из неопубликованных трудов. М., 1960.
> 3 Выготский 1968: Л. С. Выготский. Психология искусства. Изд. 2. М., 1968.
> (I think there are no quotes to Eisenstein by Vygotsky in these books, that I remember... The relationship must be conceptual, subtextual, but I can search for direct quotations too, later)
>
> The number of Eisenshtein’s works quoted along Ivanov´s book is bigger than Vygotsky’s:
>
> 1 Эйзенштейн 1945: S. Eisenstein. Film form. Film sense. Ed. 2. NY, 1957.
> 2 Эйзенштейн 1966: С. М. Эйзенштейн. [Письмо Ю. Н. Тынянову]. – В кн.: «Юрий Тынянов. Писатель и ученый». М., 1966.
> 3 Эйзенштейн 1962: С. М. Эйзенштейн. Зараза моих теоретических положений. «Вопросы теории и истории киноискусства». М., 1962.
> 4 Эйзенштейн 1964 а, б, в: С. М. Эйзенштейн. Избранные произведения, т. 1, 2, 3. М., 1964.
> 5 Эйзенштейн 1966: С. М. Эйзенштейн. Избранные произведения, т. 4. М., 1966.
> 6 Эйзенштейн 1968: С. М. Эйзенштейн. Избранные произведения, т. 5. М., 1968.
> 7 Эйзенштейн 1969: Сб. «Броненосец Потемкин». М., 1969.
> 8 Эйзенштейн 1973: С. М. Эйзенштейн. «Капитал». – «Искусство кино», 1973, № 1.
>
> (4, 5 and 6 are selected works, I can't know the actual titles of the texts quoted - I search for possible works in what Eisenstein quotes directly Vygotsky, I guess this occurs at Film form and/or Film sense, I don´t remember).
>
> I will try to read Ivanov's contribution, as soon as I can - in order to find some more connections, "inner speach" seems to be an important common point.
>
> Achilles.
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 17:52:09 -0800
> > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (links to chain)
> >
> > There are new leads in those passages from Khomskaya, which I had forgotten
> > about, Achilles. I will try to follow up with friends in Moscow.
> > mike
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 5:30 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > (off topic)
> > >
> > > Note to my last post...
> > >
> > > 1) "M.I. Knebel", must be "M.O. Knebel" too - Maria Ossipovna (Iossifovna)
> > > Knebel' (1898-1985)...
> > >
> > > 2) Luria and Knebel's text must be:
> > >
> > > * Кнебель М. И., Лурия А. Р. Пути и средства декодирования смысла.— Вопросы
> > > психологии, 1971, № 4, с. 76—83.
> > >
> > > * Knebel' M. I., Luria A. R. Puty i sredstva dekodirovaniya smysla -
> > > Voprosy psikhologii, 1971, N. 4, c. 76-83.
> > >
> > > * Knebel' M. I., Luria A. R. Ways and Means of decoding of sense. - Voprosy
> > > psikhologii, 1971, N. 4, c. 76-83.
> > >
> > > I remove my questions about this dyad and this very interesting text, and
> > > ask you only about Luria & Eisenstein's letters availability - thank you.
> > >
> > > Achilles
> > >
> > > > From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > Subject: RE: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (links to chain)
> > > > Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 03:39:11 +0000
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ok, thank you, Mike… I clearly understand your sugestion and agree.
> > > >
> > > > I collected two references to Eisenstein at Luria's biography by Evgenia
> > > Homskaya… A book well known of you, but to me is a good surprise (I'm far
> > > away from actual university tasks since 2000). After quote, I will ask
> > > little questions in order to know where can I search better.
> > > >
> > > > Evgenia D. Homskaya: Alexander Romanovich Luria: A Scientific Biography.
> > > Plenum Series in Russian Neuropsychology. New
> > > York/Boston/Dordrecht/London/Moscow: Kluwer Academic/Plenum Publishers,
> > > 2001.
> > > >
> > > > "An important event in Luria's private life also occurred during those
> > > years in Kazan. He met his wife, Vera Nikolayevna Blagovidova, also a
> > > student at the University of Kazan. Later, in Moscow, she became an actress
> > > at the studio of the famous theatrical director, A. Y. Tairov. They got
> > > married at the beginning of 1923 but their union lasted only ultil 1929. In
> > > this relatively short period, however, Luria developed most of his artistic
> > > interests in theater, painting, poetry, and so on. It was then that he
> > > became acquainted with the master of the world's cinema, Sergei M.
> > > EISENSTEIN."
> > > >
> > > > (Chapter 1. Childhood and Youth – p. 13)
> > > >
> > > > "During the 1940s Luria kept in close touch with the famous film director
> > > S. M. EISENSTEIN, who made such masterpieces of world cinema as Potemkim and
> > > Ivan The Terrible. Since becoming acquainted in the 1920s, Luria and
> > > Eisenstein shareda a common interest in the psychology of art, and
> > > psychological aspects of artistic expressiveness. Eisenstein was interested
> > > very much in the phenomenon of the mnemonist Shereshevsky, studied by Luria.
> > > In 1929, through Luria's recommendation, EISENSTEIN was introduced to Kurt
> > > Lewin, with whom he discussed the problem of artistic expressiveness. At the
> > > end of the 1920's, Luria organized at the Istitute of Cinematography to
> > > execute various kinds of cinematic shooting for scientific purposes. In the
> > > 1930s, Luria and EISENSTEIN continued to exchange letters. Their
> > > correspondence continued during the Kharkov period and during the war. After
> > > the war, and until EISENSTEIN's sudden death in 1948, they often met, shared
> > > books, and talked. Under Luria's influence, EISENSTEIN wrote the articles
> > > "Psychology of art" and "Lectures on the Psychology of Art" (see Eisenstein,
> > > 1987, 1988-1996, 1998).
> > > >
> > > > The psychology of art was also a particular theme for Luria and Vygotsky
> > > (see Vygotsky's book, the Psychology of Art, Moscow, 1982). In Luria's
> > > background, this theme is not very well known, although its expressions were
> > > very numeros and diverse. For example, his article written with the
> > > well-known film director, M. I. Knebel, "Ways and Means of Semantic Coding"
> > > (1971R), discussed verbal and nonverbal aspects of speech (mime, gestures)
> > > and was important for both the psychology of speech and the psychology of
> > > art."
> > > >
> > > > (Chapter 4, The Forties: World War II and the Rehabilitation
> > > Hospital-Neuropsychology in the Making - p. 39)
> > > >
> > > > ******
> > > >
> > > > Well. I only ask you for these wonderful letters and for Luria's article
> > > with M. I. Knebel – if it could give us some cues about what Luria think
> > > about movies and about Eisenshtein's influence in his thinking about this as
> > > well… In other hand, the articles of Eisenstein about "Psychology of Art"
> > > seems to be the same quoted by Christie & Taylor (1993) published in Leyda
> > > (ed.) "The Psychology of Composition" – this book is already available. Do
> > > you think that can exist more than two papers requested to Eisenstein for
> > > Luria? My copy here don´t have the actual references, and I don´t have the
> > > book itself yet... And my option was to aquire Leyda edited Eisenstein's, by
> > > the moment.
> > > >
> > > > All the titles I have are the following:
> > > >
> > > > * Eisenstein, "Psychology of Art", in Psycholgia
> > > > Processov Chudojestvennogo Tvorchestva (Moscow, 1980), p. 195
> > > > (quoted by JULIA VASSILIEVA in her paper "Eisenstein and his Method:
> > > recent publications in Russia")
> > > > and
> > > > * "The psychology of composition" (211)
> > > > * "The psychology of art" (211)
> > > > * "The psychology of compositon" (same title... but another text - at
> > > 249)
> > > > (at the contents of Eisenstein, S.M. "The Eisenstein´s Collection".
> > > Edited by Richard Taylor. Sagull Books, 2006)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'm seeing that I can not give meaninful contributions. I have made a
> > > question, and now I only have some other questions to make again. I'll wait
> > > for other XMCA contributions, by Mike and all the people when will be
> > > possible. And I will continue search data where it are availlable to me here
> > > and now. This was not my main goal today (I was thinking things about
> > > psychology and mental health), but sometimes an action becomes an activity,
> > > no?
> > > > Thank you very much, and my best wishes,
> > > > Achilles.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:43:02 -0700
> > > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (links to chain)
> > > > >
> > > > > It would be great to get the info on Eisenshtein and LSV/ARL. The
> > > > > entire Stanislavsy and beyond discussion is quite broad. Yrjo has
> > > > > written on this topic.
> > > > > mike
> > > > >
> > > > > On 10/31/08, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On 10/31/08, Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> To add more two or three links to a chain-complex
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> 1) About Luria and Eisenshtein: "Eisenstein planned two courses on
> > > the
> > > > > >> psychology of art at Luria's request, in 1940 and 1947 (both in
> > > Leyda
> > > > > >> (ed.)
> > > > > >> "The Psychology of Composition")." (Christie & Taylor, 1993, p. 225
> > > -
> > > > > >> Endnote 87); I ask for an used edition at amazon, seems to be fine.
> > > > > >> "Psychology of Composition" sounds like an interesting title and
> > > subject
> > > > > >> to
> > > > > >> me, composing evoques spinozian concept of "joy".
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> 2) About Eisenshtein and Stanislavsky similarity: there is a very
> > > > > >> interesting note by Nikolai Veresov commenting Vygotsky's "genetic
> > > law of
> > > > > >> cultural development" explaining something about what they means by
> > > > > >> "Category":
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> "Category is the philosophical concept. How can one imagine that the
> > > > > >> function exists as a category? Sounds strange, but according to
> > > > > >> STANISLAVSKY
> > > > > >> (famous theatre director Vygotsky used to know) AND Sergey
> > > EISENSHTEIN
> > > > > >> (filmmaker and a friend of Vygotsky) "category" in the drama means
> > > > > >> "collision", "event", dramatic unit, and the unit of analysis of
> > > drama:
> > > > > >> it
> > > > > >> might be a dialogue (mostly) or emotional explosion and so on.
> > > Vygotsky
> > > > > >> is
> > > > > >> speaking about development as a process of events, collisions and
> > > their
> > > > > >> reflections in both planes." (N. VERESOV) (Caps mine)
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Available at
> > > http://webpages.charter.net/schmolze1/vygotsky/vygotsky.html
> > > > > >> I don´t know the actual source yet - If there is a book or paper by
> > > > > >> Verosov
> > > > > >> about these matters. I will check.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> 3) About Eisenshtein and Stanislavsky differences: Eisenshtein
> > > seemed to
> > > > > >> be
> > > > > >> closer to Meyerhold than to Stanislavsky, the pome of Eris was
> > > maybe
> > > > > >> differences of emphasis in verbal or non-verbal components of the
> > > actor's
> > > > > >> play... but this stands only like um more question, not a secure
> > > > > >> information. Seems that there was, at that time, some kind of fight
> > > > > >> against
> > > > > >> "verbalization" in theatre, in which Meyerhold was activily
> > > envolved, but
> > > > > >> the actual role of Eisenshtein in that dispute is nothing clear to
> > > me.
> > > > > >> Eisenstein movies seems to operate with some kind of "pictograms",
> > > but
> > > > > >> nothing to affirm about absolutily dispense "words", even like
> > > "inner
> > > > > >> speach" - must be something about this in his own writings, quoting
> > > > > >> Vygotsky, I guess that I remember something like this in a work of a
> > > > > >> filmmaker friend of mine, some talks with her. But it was a long
> > > time
> > > > > >> ago,
> > > > > >> too. I remain in my thinking by complex, you know.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> What do you think about these links? There are something useful?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Thank you.
> > > > > >> Achilles.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>> From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > > > > >>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > >>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (a question)
> > > > > >>> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 01:02:11 +0000
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Oh, it's great, Mike...
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Borges wrote a tale named "Funes..." recreating something of
> > > > > >>> Shereshevsky... you know. So
> > > > > >>> seems that there is very artistic features in real human psychic
> > > > > >>> experience. About "generalized
> > > > > >>> image" I will see... Is this concept at "Iazik i soznanie"? We have
> > > a
> > > > > >>> Portuguese version. I have
> > > > > >>> read many years ago. I don't remember if I knew this concept , even
> > > in
> > > > > >>> another book. It
> > > > > >>> occurs to me, right now, to search immediately something about what
> > > > > >>> system
> > > > > >>> of acting was
> > > > > >>> used by Eisenstein's actors, if we can find any relation with
> > > > > >>> Stanislavsky's system of creative
> > > > > >>> actor's work... studied by Vygotsky discussed in the text from 1932
> > > > > >>> (publish in Collected Woks,
> > > > > >>> vol. 6 - prologue by Dot Robbins), and so important in 1934
> > > (thought and
> > > > > >>> word) with the
> > > > > >>> notion of "subtext"... If you tell us about psychological studies
> > > about
> > > > > >>> audience, and the feelings
> > > > > >>> and understanding of audience, the way that film is constructed and
> > > > > >>> actor
> > > > > >>> plays their roles
> > > > > >>> must be interesting to study too. After all, all we must to act...
> > > (as
> > > > > >>> "akt", and as "postuk").
> > > > > >>> I had think about the other way of mutual influences in dialog
> > > > > >>> psychology-movie too: what we
> > > > > >>> can learn from movie semiotics? And/or what about Eisenstein can
> > > teach
> > > > > >>> something to historical-
> > > > > >>> cultural approach? For instance, the notion of "non-indifferent
> > > > > >>> nature"...
> > > > > >>> I'm thinking by complex,
> > > > > >>> like ever I do. But now, it's the only way I can think. And these
> > > are
> > > > > >>> all
> > > > > >>> links that I can put in the
> > > > > >>> chain until now. And we even need a thesis and the young guy/girl
> > > with
> > > > > >>> it
> > > > > >>> in mind - I hope this
> > > > > >>> person can will arise soon in this context...
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> I will see something about Eisenshtein and Stanislavsky, right now.
> > > > > >>> What do you think? It can be useful?
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Thank very much, for all your contributions since before, since
> > > many
> > > > > >>> years
> > > > > >>> ago.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Achilles.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:10:46 -0700
> > > > > >>> > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > > > >>> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > > >>> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (a question)
> > > > > >>> >
> > > > > >>> > Excellent question. Lets see what we can find out.
> > > > > >>> > There are references in Eisenshtein's published work about his
> > > > > >>> > activities
> > > > > >>> > with
> > > > > >>> > Shereshevsky, the mnemonist. And there is, I believe, a close
> > > relation
> > > > > >>> > between the idea of "generalized image" in Luria and
> > > Eisenshtein's
> > > > > >>> > notion of
> > > > > >>> > montage.
> > > > > >>> >
> > > > > >>> > All we need is a bright young person with a thesis in mind and a
> > > ghost
> > > > > >>> > of
> > > > > >>> > chance
> > > > > >>> > of getting it done in this context.
> > > > > >>> > mike
> > > > > >>> >
> > > > > >>> > On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > > > >>> > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >>> >
> > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > >>> > > Greetings for all.
> > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > >>> > > One more extemporaneous question.
> > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > >>> > > If I'm not misremembering, in "Making mind", Mike Cole exposes
> > > some
> > > > > >>> > > very
> > > > > >>> > > interesting data about Luria and Vygotsky's works with the
> > > audience
> > > > > >>> > > of
> > > > > >>> > > Eisenshtein's movies, didn't he expose? Puzirey, I remember
> > > well,
> > > > > >>> > > has
> > > > > >>> > > said
> > > > > >>> > > something about Eisenshtein's reading of "Psychology of Art",
> > > in the
> > > > > >>> > > files
> > > > > >>> > > of Eisenshtein's personal library was founded an exemplar of
> > > the
> > > > > >>> > > book,
> > > > > >>> > > in
> > > > > >>> > > which at several places are underlined the words "contend and
> > > > > >>> > > form"...
> > > > > >>> > > a
> > > > > >>> > > basis for his own work has filmmaker. But, what more we can
> > > know
> > > > > >>> > > about
> > > > > >>> > > those
> > > > > >>> > > works with audience? Everything was loosed with War? Is there
> > > no
> > > > > >>> > > follower or
> > > > > >>> > > co-worker that have dedicate even a single book or paper about
> > > these
> > > > > >>> > > researchs? I Have thinking about these questions since
> > > 1991-1994
> > > > > >>> > > when
> > > > > >>> > > I had
> > > > > >>> > > read the fragments that I quote here, and only now I can ask
> > > for
> > > > > >>> > > you.
> > > > > >>> > > It's
> > > > > >>> > > not my main subject now, but I'm concerning with it in a
> > > personal
> > > > > >>> > > way,
> > > > > >>> > > and
> > > > > >>> > > why not to ask for? Somebody can give me some help?
> > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > >>> > > Thank you very much for your attention and help.
> > > > > >>> > > Achilles.
> > > > > >>> > >
> > > > > >>> > >
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Received on Wed Nov 5 07:03:03 2008