Re: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (links to chain)

There are new leads in those passages from Khomskaya, which I had forgotten
about, Achilles. I will try to follow up with friends in Moscow.
mike

On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 5:30 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> (off topic)
>
> Note to my last post...
>
> 1) "M.I. Knebel", must be "M.O. Knebel" too - Maria Ossipovna (Iossifovna)
> Knebel' (1898-1985)...
>
> 2) Luria and Knebel's text must be:
>
> * Кнебель М. И., Лурия А. Р. Пути и средства декодирования смысла.— Вопросы
> психологии, 1971, № 4, с. 76—83.
>
> * Knebel' M. I., Luria A. R. Puty i sredstva dekodirovaniya smysla -
> Voprosy psikhologii, 1971, N. 4, c. 76-83.
>
> * Knebel' M. I., Luria A. R. Ways and Means of decoding of sense. - Voprosy
> psikhologii, 1971, N. 4, c. 76-83.
>
> I remove my questions about this dyad and this very interesting text, and
> ask you only about Luria & Eisenstein's letters availability - thank you.
>
> Achilles
>
> > From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (links to chain)
> > Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 03:39:11 +0000
> >
> >
> > Ok, thank you, Mike… I clearly understand your sugestion and agree.
> >
> > I collected two references to Eisenstein at Luria's biography by Evgenia
> Homskaya… A book well known of you, but to me is a good surprise (I'm far
> away from actual university tasks since 2000). After quote, I will ask
> little questions in order to know where can I search better.
> >
> > Evgenia D. Homskaya: Alexander Romanovich Luria: A Scientific Biography.
> Plenum Series in Russian Neuropsychology. New
> York/Boston/Dordrecht/London/Moscow: Kluwer Academic/Plenum Publishers,
> 2001.
> >
> > "An important event in Luria's private life also occurred during those
> years in Kazan. He met his wife, Vera Nikolayevna Blagovidova, also a
> student at the University of Kazan. Later, in Moscow, she became an actress
> at the studio of the famous theatrical director, A. Y. Tairov. They got
> married at the beginning of 1923 but their union lasted only ultil 1929. In
> this relatively short period, however, Luria developed most of his artistic
> interests in theater, painting, poetry, and so on. It was then that he
> became acquainted with the master of the world's cinema, Sergei M.
> EISENSTEIN."
> >
> > (Chapter 1. Childhood and Youth – p. 13)
> >
> > "During the 1940s Luria kept in close touch with the famous film director
> S. M. EISENSTEIN, who made such masterpieces of world cinema as Potemkim and
> Ivan The Terrible. Since becoming acquainted in the 1920s, Luria and
> Eisenstein shareda a common interest in the psychology of art, and
> psychological aspects of artistic expressiveness. Eisenstein was interested
> very much in the phenomenon of the mnemonist Shereshevsky, studied by Luria.
> In 1929, through Luria's recommendation, EISENSTEIN was introduced to Kurt
> Lewin, with whom he discussed the problem of artistic expressiveness. At the
> end of the 1920's, Luria organized at the Istitute of Cinematography to
> execute various kinds of cinematic shooting for scientific purposes. In the
> 1930s, Luria and EISENSTEIN continued to exchange letters. Their
> correspondence continued during the Kharkov period and during the war. After
> the war, and until EISENSTEIN's sudden death in 1948, they often met, shared
> books, and talked. Under Luria's influence, EISENSTEIN wrote the articles
> "Psychology of art" and "Lectures on the Psychology of Art" (see Eisenstein,
> 1987, 1988-1996, 1998).
> >
> > The psychology of art was also a particular theme for Luria and Vygotsky
> (see Vygotsky's book, the Psychology of Art, Moscow, 1982). In Luria's
> background, this theme is not very well known, although its expressions were
> very numeros and diverse. For example, his article written with the
> well-known film director, M. I. Knebel, "Ways and Means of Semantic Coding"
> (1971R), discussed verbal and nonverbal aspects of speech (mime, gestures)
> and was important for both the psychology of speech and the psychology of
> art."
> >
> > (Chapter 4, The Forties: World War II and the Rehabilitation
> Hospital-Neuropsychology in the Making - p. 39)
> >
> > ******
> >
> > Well. I only ask you for these wonderful letters and for Luria's article
> with M. I. Knebel – if it could give us some cues about what Luria think
> about movies and about Eisenshtein's influence in his thinking about this as
> well… In other hand, the articles of Eisenstein about "Psychology of Art"
> seems to be the same quoted by Christie & Taylor (1993) published in Leyda
> (ed.) "The Psychology of Composition" – this book is already available. Do
> you think that can exist more than two papers requested to Eisenstein for
> Luria? My copy here don´t have the actual references, and I don´t have the
> book itself yet... And my option was to aquire Leyda edited Eisenstein's, by
> the moment.
> >
> > All the titles I have are the following:
> >
> > * Eisenstein, "Psychology of Art", in Psycholgia
> > Processov Chudojestvennogo Tvorchestva (Moscow, 1980), p. 195
> > (quoted by JULIA VASSILIEVA in her paper "Eisenstein and his Method:
> recent publications in Russia")
> > and
> > * "The psychology of composition" (211)
> > * "The psychology of art" (211)
> > * "The psychology of compositon" (same title... but another text - at
> 249)
> > (at the contents of Eisenstein, S.M. "The Eisenstein´s Collection".
> Edited by Richard Taylor. Sagull Books, 2006)
> >
> >
> > I'm seeing that I can not give meaninful contributions. I have made a
> question, and now I only have some other questions to make again. I'll wait
> for other XMCA contributions, by Mike and all the people when will be
> possible. And I will continue search data where it are availlable to me here
> and now. This was not my main goal today (I was thinking things about
> psychology and mental health), but sometimes an action becomes an activity,
> no?
> > Thank you very much, and my best wishes,
> > Achilles.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:43:02 -0700
> > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (links to chain)
> > >
> > > It would be great to get the info on Eisenshtein and LSV/ARL. The
> > > entire Stanislavsy and beyond discussion is quite broad. Yrjo has
> > > written on this topic.
> > > mike
> > >
> > > On 10/31/08, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On 10/31/08, Achilles Delari Junior <achilles_delari@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> To add more two or three links to a chain-complex
> > > >>
> > > >> 1) About Luria and Eisenshtein: "Eisenstein planned two courses on
> the
> > > >> psychology of art at Luria's request, in 1940 and 1947 (both in
> Leyda
> > > >> (ed.)
> > > >> "The Psychology of Composition")." (Christie & Taylor, 1993, p. 225
> -
> > > >> Endnote 87); I ask for an used edition at amazon, seems to be fine.
> > > >> "Psychology of Composition" sounds like an interesting title and
> subject
> > > >> to
> > > >> me, composing evoques spinozian concept of "joy".
> > > >>
> > > >> 2) About Eisenshtein and Stanislavsky similarity: there is a very
> > > >> interesting note by Nikolai Veresov commenting Vygotsky's "genetic
> law of
> > > >> cultural development" explaining something about what they means by
> > > >> "Category":
> > > >>
> > > >> "Category is the philosophical concept. How can one imagine that the
> > > >> function exists as a category? Sounds strange, but according to
> > > >> STANISLAVSKY
> > > >> (famous theatre director Vygotsky used to know) AND Sergey
> EISENSHTEIN
> > > >> (filmmaker and a friend of Vygotsky) "category" in the drama means
> > > >> "collision", "event", dramatic unit, and the unit of analysis of
> drama:
> > > >> it
> > > >> might be a dialogue (mostly) or emotional explosion and so on.
> Vygotsky
> > > >> is
> > > >> speaking about development as a process of events, collisions and
> their
> > > >> reflections in both planes." (N. VERESOV) (Caps mine)
> > > >>
> > > >> Available at
> http://webpages.charter.net/schmolze1/vygotsky/vygotsky.html
> > > >> I don´t know the actual source yet - If there is a book or paper by
> > > >> Verosov
> > > >> about these matters. I will check.
> > > >>
> > > >> 3) About Eisenshtein and Stanislavsky differences: Eisenshtein
> seemed to
> > > >> be
> > > >> closer to Meyerhold than to Stanislavsky, the pome of Eris was
> maybe
> > > >> differences of emphasis in verbal or non-verbal components of the
> actor's
> > > >> play... but this stands only like um more question, not a secure
> > > >> information. Seems that there was, at that time, some kind of fight
> > > >> against
> > > >> "verbalization" in theatre, in which Meyerhold was activily
> envolved, but
> > > >> the actual role of Eisenshtein in that dispute is nothing clear to
> me.
> > > >> Eisenstein movies seems to operate with some kind of "pictograms",
> but
> > > >> nothing to affirm about absolutily dispense "words", even like
> "inner
> > > >> speach" - must be something about this in his own writings, quoting
> > > >> Vygotsky, I guess that I remember something like this in a work of a
> > > >> filmmaker friend of mine, some talks with her. But it was a long
> time
> > > >> ago,
> > > >> too. I remain in my thinking by complex, you know.
> > > >>
> > > >> What do you think about these links? There are something useful?
> > > >>
> > > >> Thank you.
> > > >> Achilles.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> From: achilles_delari@hotmail.com
> > > >>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (a question)
> > > >>> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 01:02:11 +0000
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Oh, it's great, Mike...
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Borges wrote a tale named "Funes..." recreating something of
> > > >>> Shereshevsky... you know. So
> > > >>> seems that there is very artistic features in real human psychic
> > > >>> experience. About "generalized
> > > >>> image" I will see... Is this concept at "Iazik i soznanie"? We have
> a
> > > >>> Portuguese version. I have
> > > >>> read many years ago. I don't remember if I knew this concept , even
> in
> > > >>> another book. It
> > > >>> occurs to me, right now, to search immediately something about what
> > > >>> system
> > > >>> of acting was
> > > >>> used by Eisenstein's actors, if we can find any relation with
> > > >>> Stanislavsky's system of creative
> > > >>> actor's work... studied by Vygotsky discussed in the text from 1932
> > > >>> (publish in Collected Woks,
> > > >>> vol. 6 - prologue by Dot Robbins), and so important in 1934
> (thought and
> > > >>> word) with the
> > > >>> notion of "subtext"... If you tell us about psychological studies
> about
> > > >>> audience, and the feelings
> > > >>> and understanding of audience, the way that film is constructed and
> > > >>> actor
> > > >>> plays their roles
> > > >>> must be interesting to study too. After all, all we must to act...
> (as
> > > >>> "akt", and as "postuk").
> > > >>> I had think about the other way of mutual influences in dialog
> > > >>> psychology-movie too: what we
> > > >>> can learn from movie semiotics? And/or what about Eisenstein can
> teach
> > > >>> something to historical-
> > > >>> cultural approach? For instance, the notion of "non-indifferent
> > > >>> nature"...
> > > >>> I'm thinking by complex,
> > > >>> like ever I do. But now, it's the only way I can think. And these
> are
> > > >>> all
> > > >>> links that I can put in the
> > > >>> chain until now. And we even need a thesis and the young guy/girl
> with
> > > >>> it
> > > >>> in mind - I hope this
> > > >>> person can will arise soon in this context...
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I will see something about Eisenshtein and Stanislavsky, right now.
> > > >>> What do you think? It can be useful?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Thank very much, for all your contributions since before, since
> many
> > > >>> years
> > > >>> ago.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Achilles.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:10:46 -0700
> > > >>> > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > > >>> > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >>> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Vygotsky, Luria and Eisenshtein (a question)
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Excellent question. Lets see what we can find out.
> > > >>> > There are references in Eisenshtein's published work about his
> > > >>> > activities
> > > >>> > with
> > > >>> > Shereshevsky, the mnemonist. And there is, I believe, a close
> relation
> > > >>> > between the idea of "generalized image" in Luria and
> Eisenshtein's
> > > >>> > notion of
> > > >>> > montage.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > All we need is a bright young person with a thesis in mind and a
> ghost
> > > >>> > of
> > > >>> > chance
> > > >>> > of getting it done in this context.
> > > >>> > mike
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
> > > >>> > achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > Greetings for all.
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > One more extemporaneous question.
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > If I'm not misremembering, in "Making mind", Mike Cole exposes
> some
> > > >>> > > very
> > > >>> > > interesting data about Luria and Vygotsky's works with the
> audience
> > > >>> > > of
> > > >>> > > Eisenshtein's movies, didn't he expose? Puzirey, I remember
> well,
> > > >>> > > has
> > > >>> > > said
> > > >>> > > something about Eisenshtein's reading of "Psychology of Art",
> in the
> > > >>> > > files
> > > >>> > > of Eisenshtein's personal library was founded an exemplar of
> the
> > > >>> > > book,
> > > >>> > > in
> > > >>> > > which at several places are underlined the words "contend and
> > > >>> > > form"...
> > > >>> > > a
> > > >>> > > basis for his own work has filmmaker. But, what more we can
> know
> > > >>> > > about
> > > >>> > > those
> > > >>> > > works with audience? Everything was loosed with War? Is there
> no
> > > >>> > > follower or
> > > >>> > > co-worker that have dedicate even a single book or paper about
> these
> > > >>> > > researchs? I Have thinking about these questions since
> 1991-1994
> > > >>> > > when
> > > >>> > > I had
> > > >>> > > read the fragments that I quote here, and only now I can ask
> for
> > > >>> > > you.
> > > >>> > > It's
> > > >>> > > not my main subject now, but I'm concerning with it in a
> personal
> > > >>> > > way,
> > > >>> > > and
> > > >>> > > why not to ask for? Somebody can give me some help?
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > > Thank you very much for your attention and help.
> > > >>> > > Achilles.
> > > >>> > >
> > > >>> > >
> _________________________________________________________________
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Received on Sun Nov 2 17:52:49 2008