Re: [xmca] What Does the Russian Say?

Dear Elina:
 
Thanks very much for your translation, which gives us an important THIRD perspective. Your translation is very similar to the Minick one, which is based on the 1982 version, and that in turn was based on the 1956 one.
 
But it looks like BOTH the 1982 version and the 1956 version left out THIS passage, which appears in the Italian translation (which as van der Veer points out is a quite close rendition of the 1934 edition) but in no other:
 
“Piaget himself, in concluding the second of his workers (i.e. “Reasoning and Judgement of the Child”--dk) says this: “We therefore believe—and we affirm—that one day we shall be able to put the thought of the child on the same continuum as the thought of a normal, civilized adult, the thought of the primitive mentality defined by Levy Bruhl, the autistic and symbolic thought of Freud and his followers, and the “morbid consciousness” of Charles Blondel.” (p. 408). In reality, this first work (i.e. “Language and Thought of the Child”), for its historical significance for the development of the hidden side of psychological thought, must be placed alongside and compared with “Mental functioning in inferior societies” by Levy-Bruhl, “The interpretation of dreams” by Freud, and “The morbid conscience” by Blondel. Moreover, we observe between these findings in various fields of scientific psychology not only an external
 likeness, determined by their level of historical significance, but a profound and intimate internal affinity, a common essence in the philosophical and psychological tendencies that they contain and embody. Not without reason does Piaget apologize in an exaggerated manner for the research and theories of these three works and their authors.”
 
Yes, I agree: LSV is praising Piaget for his clinical method (and I think that Paula's defense of Chapter Five is, rather perversely, a defense of LSV's use of an EXPERIMENTAL tool in an almost purely CLINICAL way, the use of the strange situation as an INTERVIEW technique).
 
But I think there's something else here which is closer to condemnation: LSV thinks that Piaget, Freud, Levy-Bruhl, and Blondel are ALL philosophical idealists; people who would actually perpetuate the DUALISM of psychology by creating a kind of idealized counterpart of the body ("egocentrism", "lustprinzip", "primitive" and "morbid consciousness") and giving it explanatory status.
 
That's how I read this passage. But this passage does NOT appear in any English translation, nor in any of the many translations based on the English translation.
 
So it looks like it ALSO doesn't apear in the Russian versions after 1934. But why? Why did it get cut from the 1956 and 1982 editions, and why hasn't anybody except Mecacci put it back?
 
David Kellogg
Seoul National University of Education

--- On Thu, 9/18/08, Elina Lampert-Shepel <ellampert@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Elina Lampert-Shepel <ellampert@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [xmca] What Does the Russian Say?
To: mcole@weber.ucsd.edu, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date: Thursday, September 18, 2008, 10:52 PM

Sorry, the previous message was sent by mistake...I read the beginning of
Chapter 2, "Thinking and Speech," 1982 edition that I brought with me
to New
York. My humble interpretation is that Vygotsky is building the notion of
crisis in psychology here, substantiating the argument that psychology as
science is in crises because its methodological foundations are in an
absolute contradition with factual data collected in the most advanced
research of that time. In this sense Vygotsky distinguishes Piaget from
other psychologists by showing that he was the first one to address
the *qualitative
transformations* of the intellect in the course of development. Vygotsky
quotes Clapared, who wrote the introduction to the first French edition
of Piaget's book,
        In the time when the problematics of child's thinking was addressed
from quantitative perspective, Piaget addressed it from a
       qualitative one. When other interpreted child's progress in thinking
as a result of mechanistic addition and subtraction ( learning
       new facts from experience and excluding some previous mistakes,
.....), we are shown now that this progress depends first of all
       on the qualitative changes in child's thinking. ( Clapared, 1932,
p.60) quoted in Vygotsky, 1982, p.24
Vygotsky further builds the argument that though Piaget collected evidence
that supported the idea of qualitative transformations in child's thinking,
the existing that time methodological foundations of psychology as science
limited the opportunity to create the *unifying theory of human
development*that could provide explanation to the factual data
collected by such
prominent researchers as Freud, Blondel and Levy-Bruhl....He quotes Piaget
and argues that Piaget did not address methodological crisis, avoided
generalizarions and considering the psychological problems from the
perspective of other fields - logic, history of philosophy...and argued that
his research is first of all the collection of facts ( vygotsky, 1982, p.25)

In other words, Vygotsky praises Piaget for empirical data and his clinical
method, but argues that every fact is grounded in a specific philosophical
tradition used for its collection and analysis, and therefore philosophical
analysis of research methodology should be in place.

These are my 5 cents...sorry for literate translation, did not edit...
What do you think?
Elina

On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 1:21 AM, Elina Lampert-Shepel
<ellampert@gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 11:27 PM, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>> Access to the Russian originals from which the various translators
>> were working would be helpful..
>> perhaps the real Russian knowers will send along for discussion.
>> mike
>>
>> On 9/19/08, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > Terribly sorry, Russophiles! That went off by accident.
Here's what I
>> MEANT
>> > to ask:
>> > Our study group here in Seoul is trying to create a new Korean
>> translation
>> > of
>> > "Thinking and Speech". We're VERY weak in Russian
so we're
>> > trying to get at the original by comparing translations,
especially
>> Norman
>> > Minick's "Thinking and Speech" and Luciano
Mecacci's
>> > "Pensiero e Linguaggio".
>> >
>> > And that's the problem. At the beginning of Chapter Two,
Minick's got
>> > this:
>> >
>> > "The research of Jean Piaget represents a new stage in the
devleopment
>> of
>> > theory concerning the speech and thinking of the child; a news
stage in
>> the
>> > development of theory concerning the child's logic andworld
view. His
>> work
>> > is of substantial historical significance.Beginning with a new
>> persepctive
>> > on
>> > the problem, and using the clinical method he developed, Piaget
ahs
>> carried
>> > out
>> > profoundly insightful investigations of the child's logic.
Piaget
>> himself,
>> > in concluding the second of his works, clearly and precisely
noted the
>> > significance of his approach in the study of this old problem.
>> > "While Piaget's studies have created new
directions..."
>> >
>> > Now, here's what Maccaci's got:
>> >
>> > "The research of Jean Piaget represents a new stage in the
devleopment
>> of
>> > theory concerning the speech and thinking of the child; a news
stage in
>> the
>> > development of theory concerning the child's logic andworld
view. His
>> work
>> > is of substantial historical significance.Beginning with a new
>> persepctive
>> > on
>> > the problem, and using the clinical method he developed, Piaget
ahs
>> carried
>> > out
>> > profoundly insightful investigations of the child's logic.
Piaget
>> himself,
>> > in concluding the second of his works, clearly and precisely
noted the
>> > significance of his approach in the study of this old problem.
>> >
>> > Piaget himself, in concluding the second of his workers (i.e.
"Reasoning
>> and
>> > Judgement of the Child" says this: "We therefore
believe—and we
>> affirm—that
>> > one day we shall be able to put the thought of the child on the
same
>> plane
>> > as the thought of a normal, civilized adult, the thought of the
>> primitive
>> > mentality defined by Levy Bruhl, the autistic and symbolic
thought of
>> Freud
>> > and his followers, and the "morbid consciousness" of
Charles Blondel."
>> (p.
>> > 408). In reality, this first work (i.e. "Language and
Thought of the
>> > Child"), for its historical significance for the development
of the
>> hidden
>> > side of psychological thought, must be placed alongside and
compared
>> with
>> > "Mental functioning in inferior societies" by
Levy-Bruhl, "The
>> > interpretation of dreams" by Freud, and "The morbid
conscience" by
>> Blondel.
>> > Moreover, we observe between these findings in various fields of
>> scientific
>> > psychology not only an external likeness,
>> > determined by their level of historical significance, but a
profound
>> and
>> > intimate internal affinity, a common essence in the philosophical
and
>> > psychological tendencies that they contain and embody. Not
without
>> reason
>> > does Piaget apologize in an exaggerated manner for the research
and
>> theories
>> > of these three works and their authors."
>> >
>> > "While Piaget's studies have created new
directions..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Apparently those words of Vygotsky's in the middle have never
appeared
>> in
>> > English. But you can see there's a BIG hunk missing,and that
the cut
>> does
>> > not at all improve the text: in fact it makes the first part of
the text
>> > much more pro-Piagetian than Vygotsky meant.
>> >
>> > What's going on? Does anyone know why this was cut in the
1956 edition
>> and
>> > the 1982 edition?
>> >
>> > David Kellogg
>> > Seoul National University of Education
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Dear xmca Russophones:
>> >
>> >
>> > But here's Mecacci (I'm translating roughly from the
Italian):
>> >
>> > Piaget himself, in concluding the second of his workers (i.e.
>> "Reasoning
>> > and Judgement of the Child" says this: "We therefore
believe—and we
>> > affirm—that one day we shall be able to put the thought of the
child on
>> the
>> > same plane as the thought of a normal, civilized adult, the
thought of
>> the
>> > primitive mentality defined by Levy Bruhl, the autistic and
symbolic
>> thought
>> > of Freud and his followers, and the "morbid
consciousness" of Charles
>> > Blondel." (p. 408). In reality, this first work (i.e.
"Language and
>> Thought
>> > of the Child"), for its historical significance for the
development of
>> the
>> > hidden side of psychological thought, must be placed alongside
and
>> compared
>> > with "Mental functioning in inferior societies" by
Levy-Bruhl, "The
>> > interpretation of dreams" by Freud, and "The morbid
conscience" by
>> Blondel.
>> > Moreover, we observe between these findings in various fields of
>> scientific
>> > psychology not only an external likeness,
>> > determined by their level of historical significance, but a
profound
>> and
>> > intimate internal affinity, a common essence in the philosophical
and
>> > psychological tendencies that they contain and embody. Not
without
>> reason
>> > does Piaget apologize in an exaggerated manner for the research
and
>> theories
>> > of these three works and their authors."
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > xmca mailing list
>> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > xmca mailing list
>> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> xmca mailing list
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Elina Lampert-Shepel
> Assistant Professor
> Graduate School of Education
> Mercy College New Teacher Residency Program
> Mercy College
> 66 West 35th Street
> New York, NY 10001
> (212) 615 3367
>
> I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of
> it and it responds. It is free. But it is not free to do what a
> violin string is supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it,
> fix it in my violin and tighten it until it is taut. Only then it
> is free to be a violin string.
> Sir Rabindranath Tagore.
>

-- 
Elina Lampert-Shepel
Assistant Professor
Graduate School of Education
Mercy College New Teacher Residency Program
Mercy College
66 West 35th Street
New York, NY 10001
(212) 615 3367
I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of
it and it responds. It is free. But it is not free to do what a
violin string is supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it,
fix it in my violin and tighten it until it is taut. Only then it
is free to be a violin string.
Sir Rabindranath Tagore.
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