Re: [xmca] What Does the Russian Say?

Sorry, the previous message was sent by mistake...I read the beginning of
Chapter 2, "Thinking and Speech," 1982 edition that I brought with me to New
York. My humble interpretation is that Vygotsky is building the notion of
crisis in psychology here, substantiating the argument that psychology as
science is in crises because its methodological foundations are in an
absolute contradition with factual data collected in the most advanced
research of that time. In this sense Vygotsky distinguishes Piaget from
other psychologists by showing that he was the first one to address
the *qualitative
transformations* of the intellect in the course of development. Vygotsky
quotes Clapared, who wrote the introduction to the first French edition
of Piaget's book,
        In the time when the problematics of child's thinking was addressed
from quantitative perspective, Piaget addressed it from a
       qualitative one. When other interpreted child's progress in thinking
as a result of mechanistic addition and subtraction ( learning
       new facts from experience and excluding some previous mistakes,
.....), we are shown now that this progress depends first of all
       on the qualitative changes in child's thinking. ( Clapared, 1932,
p.60) quoted in Vygotsky, 1982, p.24
Vygotsky further builds the argument that though Piaget collected evidence
that supported the idea of qualitative transformations in child's thinking,
the existing that time methodological foundations of psychology as science
limited the opportunity to create the *unifying theory of human
development*that could provide explanation to the factual data
collected by such
prominent researchers as Freud, Blondel and Levy-Bruhl....He quotes Piaget
and argues that Piaget did not address methodological crisis, avoided
generalizarions and considering the psychological problems from the
perspective of other fields - logic, history of philosophy...and argued that
his research is first of all the collection of facts ( vygotsky, 1982, p.25)

In other words, Vygotsky praises Piaget for empirical data and his clinical
method, but argues that every fact is grounded in a specific philosophical
tradition used for its collection and analysis, and therefore philosophical
analysis of research methodology should be in place.

These are my 5 cents...sorry for literate translation, did not edit...
What do you think?
Elina

On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 1:21 AM, Elina Lampert-Shepel
<ellampert@gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 11:27 PM, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Access to the Russian originals from which the various translators
>> were working would be helpful..
>> perhaps the real Russian knowers will send along for discussion.
>> mike
>>
>> On 9/19/08, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > Terribly sorry, Russophiles! That went off by accident. Here's what I
>> MEANT
>> > to ask:
>> > Our study group here in Seoul is trying to create a new Korean
>> translation
>> > of
>> > "Thinking and Speech". We're VERY weak in Russian so we're
>> > trying to get at the original by comparing translations, especially
>> Norman
>> > Minick's "Thinking and Speech" and Luciano Mecacci's
>> > "Pensiero e Linguaggio".
>> >
>> > And that's the problem. At the beginning of Chapter Two, Minick's got
>> > this:
>> >
>> > "The research of Jean Piaget represents a new stage in the devleopment
>> of
>> > theory concerning the speech and thinking of the child; a news stage in
>> the
>> > development of theory concerning the child's logic andworld view. His
>> work
>> > is of substantial historical significance.Beginning with a new
>> persepctive
>> > on
>> > the problem, and using the clinical method he developed, Piaget ahs
>> carried
>> > out
>> > profoundly insightful investigations of the child's logic. Piaget
>> himself,
>> > in concluding the second of his works, clearly and precisely noted the
>> > significance of his approach in the study of this old problem.
>> > "While Piaget's studies have created new directions..."
>> >
>> > Now, here's what Maccaci's got:
>> >
>> > "The research of Jean Piaget represents a new stage in the devleopment
>> of
>> > theory concerning the speech and thinking of the child; a news stage in
>> the
>> > development of theory concerning the child's logic andworld view. His
>> work
>> > is of substantial historical significance.Beginning with a new
>> persepctive
>> > on
>> > the problem, and using the clinical method he developed, Piaget ahs
>> carried
>> > out
>> > profoundly insightful investigations of the child's logic. Piaget
>> himself,
>> > in concluding the second of his works, clearly and precisely noted the
>> > significance of his approach in the study of this old problem.
>> >
>> > Piaget himself, in concluding the second of his workers (i.e. "Reasoning
>> and
>> > Judgement of the Child" says this: "We therefore believe—and we
>> affirm—that
>> > one day we shall be able to put the thought of the child on the same
>> plane
>> > as the thought of a normal, civilized adult, the thought of the
>> primitive
>> > mentality defined by Levy Bruhl, the autistic and symbolic thought of
>> Freud
>> > and his followers, and the "morbid consciousness" of Charles Blondel."
>> (p.
>> > 408). In reality, this first work (i.e. "Language and Thought of the
>> > Child"), for its historical significance for the development of the
>> hidden
>> > side of psychological thought, must be placed alongside and compared
>> with
>> > "Mental functioning in inferior societies" by Levy-Bruhl, "The
>> > interpretation of dreams" by Freud, and "The morbid conscience" by
>> Blondel.
>> > Moreover, we observe between these findings in various fields of
>> scientific
>> > psychology not only an external likeness,
>> > determined by their level of historical significance, but a profound
>> and
>> > intimate internal affinity, a common essence in the philosophical and
>> > psychological tendencies that they contain and embody. Not without
>> reason
>> > does Piaget apologize in an exaggerated manner for the research and
>> theories
>> > of these three works and their authors."
>> >
>> > "While Piaget's studies have created new directions..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Apparently those words of Vygotsky's in the middle have never appeared
>> in
>> > English. But you can see there's a BIG hunk missing,and that the cut
>> does
>> > not at all improve the text: in fact it makes the first part of the text
>> > much more pro-Piagetian than Vygotsky meant.
>> >
>> > What's going on? Does anyone know why this was cut in the 1956 edition
>> and
>> > the 1982 edition?
>> >
>> > David Kellogg
>> > Seoul National University of Education
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Dear xmca Russophones:
>> >
>> >
>> > But here's Mecacci (I'm translating roughly from the Italian):
>> >
>> > Piaget himself, in concluding the second of his workers (i.e.
>> "Reasoning
>> > and Judgement of the Child" says this: "We therefore believe—and we
>> > affirm—that one day we shall be able to put the thought of the child on
>> the
>> > same plane as the thought of a normal, civilized adult, the thought of
>> the
>> > primitive mentality defined by Levy Bruhl, the autistic and symbolic
>> thought
>> > of Freud and his followers, and the "morbid consciousness" of Charles
>> > Blondel." (p. 408). In reality, this first work (i.e. "Language and
>> Thought
>> > of the Child"), for its historical significance for the development of
>> the
>> > hidden side of psychological thought, must be placed alongside and
>> compared
>> > with "Mental functioning in inferior societies" by Levy-Bruhl, "The
>> > interpretation of dreams" by Freud, and "The morbid conscience" by
>> Blondel.
>> > Moreover, we observe between these findings in various fields of
>> scientific
>> > psychology not only an external likeness,
>> > determined by their level of historical significance, but a profound
>> and
>> > intimate internal affinity, a common essence in the philosophical and
>> > psychological tendencies that they contain and embody. Not without
>> reason
>> > does Piaget apologize in an exaggerated manner for the research and
>> theories
>> > of these three works and their authors."
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > xmca mailing list
>> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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>> >
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>
>
>
> --
> Elina Lampert-Shepel
> Assistant Professor
> Graduate School of Education
> Mercy College New Teacher Residency Program
> Mercy College
> 66 West 35th Street
> New York, NY 10001
> (212) 615 3367
>
> I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of
> it and it responds. It is free. But it is not free to do what a
> violin string is supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it,
> fix it in my violin and tighten it until it is taut. Only then it
> is free to be a violin string.
> Sir Rabindranath Tagore.
>

-- 
Elina Lampert-Shepel
Assistant Professor
Graduate School of Education
Mercy College New Teacher Residency Program
Mercy College
66 West 35th Street
New York, NY 10001
(212) 615 3367
I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of
it and it responds. It is free. But it is not free to do what a
violin string is supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it,
fix it in my violin and tighten it until it is taut. Only then it
is free to be a violin string.
Sir Rabindranath Tagore.
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