Re: [xmca] Banana Mediated Emotions

good reference, even if I cannot spell, Dvdia!
:-)
mike

On 8/31/07, David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the citation, Mike.
> Kirshner has no "c" in it.
> David
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf Of Mike Cole
> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 3:52 PM
> To: Zayra Zambrano
> Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Banana Mediated Emotions
>
> Hola Zayra!
>
> I suggest that you go to lchc.ucsd.edu and google the site using the
> google
> search engine at the bottom
> of the page. There you will find many leads for thinking about situated
> learning, cognition, etc. You will also find references to the work of
> David
> Kirschner such as
>
> Kirschner, D., and Whitson, J., eds. *Situated Cognition: Social,
> Semiotic,
> and Psychological Perspectives*. Mahwah, NJ: Lawrence Erlbaum Associates,
> 1997.
>
> These might be useful starting points.
> mike
>
> On 8/31/07, Zayra Zambrano <zayra.zambrano@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Im Zayra, Is the first time I write a mail for XMCA,.. Im student of
> > psychology from México, in the Universidad de las Americas, Puebla.
> >
> > I'm starting to search information for my thesis, so I would like to
> > welcome some information, curiosities, and opinions about corporal
> language,
> > and how it has relation with emotions, cognition process; overcoat in
> > childhood.
> >
> > Would be nice to get some differents points of view.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2007/7/25, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>:
> > >
> > > David and Michael--
> > >
> > > 1) David; I need to re-read the Gray et al "integration of emotion"
> > > paper
> > > for the complexity you point to. What most interested me in it was the
> > > idea
> > > of behavioral/anatomical/functional evidence to support the idea that
> "
> > > A
> > > functional integration of emotion and cognition would allow the goal
> > > directed control of behavior to depend upon the emotional context.
> > > Goal-directed behavior is a complex control function mediated neurally
> > > by
> > > prefrontal cortex and involves higher cognitive processes...... I am
> not
> > >
> > > sure I am on the same page concerning what they believe higher cog
> > > processes
> > > to be, but that will take more reading to determine.
> > >
> > > I have also encountered some interesting developmental work along
> these
> > > lines but have not had time to track it further. The general line of
> > > arguments seems to be carrying on the program that LSV was gesturing
> > > toward.
> > >
> > > 2. All. I have just, after an inexcusable oversight lasting more than
> a
> > > decade, found
> > > Herb Clark's book, *Using Language*. Does anyone know it? It starts by
> > > arguing that
> > > language arises from pre-linguistic joint activity. In fact, the
> entire
> > > first chapter is about
> > > joint activity. I have just started it, but it reads very much as is
> it
> > > had
> > > been written by
> > > Mescheryakov thus far. Does anyone know this work? Am I on the right
> > > track??
> > > mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 7/24/07, Wolff-Michael Roth <mroth@uvic.ca> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi David,
> > > > when I refer to David McNeill's work, it is in particular to two
> > > > pieces, his 1984 or 1985 chapter where he writes about Vygotsky and
> > > > the 2002 paper that is clearly taking speech and gesture as a
> > > > dialectical pair sublated into a higher unit, of which each is a
> one-
> > > > sided expression.
> > > >
> > > > Lilian Pozzer-Ardenghi and I have continued to explore communicative
> > > > units, and bring any meaning-making resource into it (Roth & Pozzer-
> > > > Ardenghi, 2006). We view all of these moments as constitutive of
> > > > meaning, which is not something to be pointed to in an unambiguous
> > > > way but more like a sense of how the world works. As Heidegger says,
> > > > words do not get meaning (or people construct meaning of words), but
> > > > rather, words ACCRUE to meaning, and the world is entirely shot
> > > > through with it.
> > > >
> > > > So all the different moments--speech, gesture, prosody, position,
> > > > orientation, and the rates of all of these--do not act independently
> > > > but are subordinated to and constitute a higher order unit, none of
> > > > them expressing this higher order unit on its own (especially not
> > > > speech [language], to which we, in a phal-logo-centric culture want
> > > > to reduce everything) but rather only one-sidedly.
> > > >
> > > > I like Holzkamp's analysis, which brings together motion,
> > > > emotiveional valence, motive, and motivation (you see the common
> > > > origin in all these words), and begins with a possible beginning
> when
> > > > one-cellular organisms correlate initially arbitrary motion with
> more
> > > > food concentrations, which are of higher valence. He then shows how
> > > > through episodes of quantitative and qualitative changes, we can
> > > > eventually get to anthropogenesis, where the motive of activity
> > > > becomes a new unit... and so on. In a paper a few years back, I
> > > > developed this approach.
> > > >
> > > > I am not trying to be objectivist or subjectivist or materialist or
> > > > anything, just trying to make sense and understand. In a paper you
> > > > can do only so much within the limited amount of space (word
> > > > count).... Thus, Andy provided a label that an Australian colleague
> > > > of his would absolutely disagree; to this colleague, I am the
> > > > constructivist devil in person, subjectivist to the point of
> > > > poisoning our youth.... :-)
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Michael
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 24-Jul-07, at 2:51 PM, David Kellogg wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dear (Wolff-)Michael:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for your reply, but above all thanks for your work on
> > > > science teaching which I've read with great interest (I've got an
> > > > article coming out next July in Language and Education which
> > > > references you). I've also closely followed your work on gesture
> > > > (particularly now that I'm reading a lot of McNeill's).
> > > >
> > > > When I read McNeill on gesture, I always get this feeling that he
> > > > has to keep shaking things to keep them from separating. His view of
> > > > speech is as something completely arbitrary, segmental, symbolic and
> > > > systematic, and his view of gesture is completely iconic, holistic,
> > > > and jerry-rigged.
> > > >
> > > > So in his latest book (Gesture and Thought, University of Chicago
> > > > Press 2005) he has to give up the idea of categorizing gestures into
> > > > iconics, metaphorics, emblems, deictics and beats. and he argues
> that
> > > > everything is everything else as well as itself. Unlike speech.
> > > >
> > > > Unlike speech? When I first read "Emotion and Work" I was a
> little
> > > > taken aback by your use of the Praat program to measure the
> emotional
> > > > content of speech. I was even more taken aback by where you show
> that
> > > > intonation contours are co-constructed, broken off, and then
> > > > continued. Exactly what we'd expect if intonation were really just
> an
> > > > internalization of gesture, pointing with your voice instead of your
> > > > hands because you are using your hands to type at at computer, just
> > > > as people point with their eyes or tongues when their hands are
> full.
> > > >
> > > > Intonation is indubitably part of speech; nobody has to keep
> > > > shaking intonation and speech to get them to stay together. But
> this
> > > > means that McNeill's description of language as being segmented,
> > > > compositional, lexicon-based, syntactic, arbitrary and unilinear is
> > > > all wrong.
> > > >
> > > > It's rather hard to see how speech could ever express emotion if
> > > > it were the way McNeill imagines it. It can only express emotion if
> > > > it is a little more the way McNeill imagines gesture to be: iconic
> > > > and improvisational.Speech with expressive intonation and evaluative
> > > > overtones is really a lot more like gesture then like lines of
> > > > computer code.
> > > >
> > > > In fact it seems to me that with a whole range of emotions (which
> > > > we might call the "higher emotions" by analogy with the higher
> > > > psychological functions that Vygotsky posits) are not only expressed
> > > > by speech but mediated and constructed by speech, so permeated with
> > > > speech that language is as much a part of the emotion as bodily
> > > > feelings or even more.
> > > >
> > > > These include all the emotions that Vygotsky writes about in the
> > > > Psychology of Art, but they also include the sort of emotions that
> > > > are central to ethics education (that's my big project this summer).
> > > > And it seems to me that with these language-mediated emotions, the
> > > > relationship between "feelings" and "emotions" that Damasio claims
> > > > has to be reversed.
> > > >
> > > > Damasio really thinks that "feelings" come very much after the
> > > > fact: they are "subordinated" to bodily states, to use the
> expression
> > > > that so annoyed Andy. (I'm not sure why we can't say "subordinated",
> > > > since Marxists certainly do use the term "superstructure" and base,
> > > > and a base is be definition logically prior to a superstructure.)
> But
> > > > in your data it seems to me that feelings come into being through
> > > > their expression.
> > > >
> > > > Damasio thinks that we have some way of evaluating events for
> > > > their emotional content without actually reacting emotionally to
> > > > them, as when you see a car headed toward you and turn away without
> > > > thinking or even feeling very much and the emotion that attends on a
> > > > narrow brush with death comes very much after the fact. But in your
> > > > data it seems to me that Jack needs to UNDERSTAND verbal
> interactions
> > > > first before he can evaluate their emotional content: Jack needs to
> > > > COMPREHEND (yes, consciously!) the lukewarm response of his
> superiors
> > > > before he can experience disappointment and react with cynicism.
> > > >
> > > > I guess I don't think Jack's experience is a matter of chickens
> > > > and eggs, or even of knowing that one was successful mediating a
> > > > bodily state which then mediates performances that are far beyond
> > > > normal. That would be true if there were no social dimension to
> > > > success; that is, if it were not dependent on explicit, conscious,
> > > > even verbal recognition.
> > > >
> > > > (To tell you the truth, I was a little saddened by the ending of
> > > > the article.The idea of Jack and Ellen living from hand to mouth and
> > > > from grant to grant does not seem to me to bode at all well for the
> > > > future of their project or even of their current high morale. Here
> in
> > > > Korea, every primary school teacher is a national civil servant with
> > > > permanent tenure, and this is an extremely important part of their
> > > > high social status, their desirability as marriage partners, and of
> > > > course their self-esteem. It even has a noticeable effect on my
> > > > graduate students; since they do not really require their MAs for
> > > > advancement, they are quite willing to undertake risky research
> > > > projects, like our current one on ethics education! The whole idea
> > > > teaching ethical principles using rewards and punishments is not a
> > > > little self-contradictory, and so is the attempt to stimulate
> > > > intellectual adventurousness with carrots and sticks.)
> > > >
> > > > One of my grad students was playing a game with her kids called
> > > > "Find the Banana" which involved hiding a banana behind some cards
> > > > (which represented activities and days of the week) and then
> guessing
> > > > which card had the banana by asking "Can you go swimming on Monday?"
> > > > "Yes/no" The problem was that the kids kept turning around and
> > > > peeking when she hid the banana, and so the game was over too
> > > > quickly. In fury, she seized the banana, peeled it and devoured it
> > > > before the children's appalled eyes. She then brandished the banana
> > > > skin and told the children they would henceforth have to play for an
> > > > empty peel.
> > > >
> > > > Soon the banana skin became a kind of trophy, a little like the
> > > > World Cup. When one team one the banana skin, it was displayed
> > > > proudly and prominently on the team leader's desk until the next
> team
> > > > won it back. The banana had gone from being a pure use value to an
> > > > exchange value, from a means to a physical state of well-being to a
> > > > signifier of social status alone.
> > > >
> > > > From that point on the children saw no point in peeking to see
> > > > where the banana peel was hidden.The first priority was now last,
> and
> > > > the last priority was now first; obeying the rule on not peeking was
> > > > now a precondition for the social signficance attendant on winning
> > > > the Golden Banana Skin, and the idea of consuming the banana
> dwindled
> > > > into insignificance. The corresponding emotions also underwent a
> > > > transition, from the lower banana-mediated emotions to the higher
> > > > banana-peel mediated emotions. So you see it is not just academics
> > > > who intellectualize these things!
> > > >
> > > > David Kellogg
> > > > Seoul National University of Education
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------
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> > > > of spyware protection.
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Received on Fri Aug 31 21:08 PDT 2007