RE: [xmca] Banana Mediated Emotions

Thanks for the citation, Mike.
Kirshner has no "c" in it.
David

-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Mike Cole
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 3:52 PM
To: Zayra Zambrano
Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] Banana Mediated Emotions

Hola Zayra!

I suggest that you go to lchc.ucsd.edu and google the site using the google
search engine at the bottom
of the page. There you will find many leads for thinking about situated
learning, cognition, etc. You will also find references to the work of David
Kirschner such as

Kirschner, D., and Whitson, J., eds. *Situated Cognition: Social, Semiotic,
and Psychological Perspectives*. Mahwah, NJ: Lawrence Erlbaum Associates,
1997.

These might be useful starting points.
mike

On 8/31/07, Zayra Zambrano <zayra.zambrano@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, Im Zayra, Is the first time I write a mail for XMCA,.. Im student of
> psychology from México, in the Universidad de las Americas, Puebla.
>
> I'm starting to search information for my thesis, so I would like to
> welcome some information, curiosities, and opinions about corporal language,
> and how it has relation with emotions, cognition process; overcoat in
> childhood.
>
> Would be nice to get some differents points of view.
>
>
>
>
> 2007/7/25, Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>:
> >
> > David and Michael--
> >
> > 1) David; I need to re-read the Gray et al "integration of emotion"
> > paper
> > for the complexity you point to. What most interested me in it was the
> > idea
> > of behavioral/anatomical/functional evidence to support the idea that "
> > A
> > functional integration of emotion and cognition would allow the goal
> > directed control of behavior to depend upon the emotional context.
> > Goal-directed behavior is a complex control function mediated neurally
> > by
> > prefrontal cortex and involves higher cognitive processes...... I am not
> >
> > sure I am on the same page concerning what they believe higher cog
> > processes
> > to be, but that will take more reading to determine.
> >
> > I have also encountered some interesting developmental work along these
> > lines but have not had time to track it further. The general line of
> > arguments seems to be carrying on the program that LSV was gesturing
> > toward.
> >
> > 2. All. I have just, after an inexcusable oversight lasting more than a
> > decade, found
> > Herb Clark's book, *Using Language*. Does anyone know it? It starts by
> > arguing that
> > language arises from pre-linguistic joint activity. In fact, the entire
> > first chapter is about
> > joint activity. I have just started it, but it reads very much as is it
> > had
> > been written by
> > Mescheryakov thus far. Does anyone know this work? Am I on the right
> > track??
> > mike
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7/24/07, Wolff-Michael Roth <mroth@uvic.ca> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi David,
> > > when I refer to David McNeill's work, it is in particular to two
> > > pieces, his 1984 or 1985 chapter where he writes about Vygotsky and
> > > the 2002 paper that is clearly taking speech and gesture as a
> > > dialectical pair sublated into a higher unit, of which each is a one-
> > > sided expression.
> > >
> > > Lilian Pozzer-Ardenghi and I have continued to explore communicative
> > > units, and bring any meaning-making resource into it (Roth & Pozzer-
> > > Ardenghi, 2006). We view all of these moments as constitutive of
> > > meaning, which is not something to be pointed to in an unambiguous
> > > way but more like a sense of how the world works. As Heidegger says,
> > > words do not get meaning (or people construct meaning of words), but
> > > rather, words ACCRUE to meaning, and the world is entirely shot
> > > through with it.
> > >
> > > So all the different moments--speech, gesture, prosody, position,
> > > orientation, and the rates of all of these--do not act independently
> > > but are subordinated to and constitute a higher order unit, none of
> > > them expressing this higher order unit on its own (especially not
> > > speech [language], to which we, in a phal-logo-centric culture want
> > > to reduce everything) but rather only one-sidedly.
> > >
> > > I like Holzkamp's analysis, which brings together motion,
> > > emotiveional valence, motive, and motivation (you see the common
> > > origin in all these words), and begins with a possible beginning when
> > > one-cellular organisms correlate initially arbitrary motion with more
> > > food concentrations, which are of higher valence. He then shows how
> > > through episodes of quantitative and qualitative changes, we can
> > > eventually get to anthropogenesis, where the motive of activity
> > > becomes a new unit... and so on. In a paper a few years back, I
> > > developed this approach.
> > >
> > > I am not trying to be objectivist or subjectivist or materialist or
> > > anything, just trying to make sense and understand. In a paper you
> > > can do only so much within the limited amount of space (word
> > > count).... Thus, Andy provided a label that an Australian colleague
> > > of his would absolutely disagree; to this colleague, I am the
> > > constructivist devil in person, subjectivist to the point of
> > > poisoning our youth.... :-)
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 24-Jul-07, at 2:51 PM, David Kellogg wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear (Wolff-)Michael:
> > >
> > > Thanks for your reply, but above all thanks for your work on
> > > science teaching which I've read with great interest (I've got an
> > > article coming out next July in Language and Education which
> > > references you). I've also closely followed your work on gesture
> > > (particularly now that I'm reading a lot of McNeill's).
> > >
> > > When I read McNeill on gesture, I always get this feeling that he
> > > has to keep shaking things to keep them from separating. His view of
> > > speech is as something completely arbitrary, segmental, symbolic and
> > > systematic, and his view of gesture is completely iconic, holistic,
> > > and jerry-rigged.
> > >
> > > So in his latest book (Gesture and Thought, University of Chicago
> > > Press 2005) he has to give up the idea of categorizing gestures into
> > > iconics, metaphorics, emblems, deictics and beats. and he argues that
> > > everything is everything else as well as itself. Unlike speech.
> > >
> > > Unlike speech? When I first read "Emotion and Work" I was a little
> > > taken aback by your use of the Praat program to measure the emotional
> > > content of speech. I was even more taken aback by where you show that
> > > intonation contours are co-constructed, broken off, and then
> > > continued. Exactly what we'd expect if intonation were really just an
> > > internalization of gesture, pointing with your voice instead of your
> > > hands because you are using your hands to type at at computer, just
> > > as people point with their eyes or tongues when their hands are full.
> > >
> > > Intonation is indubitably part of speech; nobody has to keep
> > > shaking intonation and speech to get them to stay together. But this
> > > means that McNeill's description of language as being segmented,
> > > compositional, lexicon-based, syntactic, arbitrary and unilinear is
> > > all wrong.
> > >
> > > It's rather hard to see how speech could ever express emotion if
> > > it were the way McNeill imagines it. It can only express emotion if
> > > it is a little more the way McNeill imagines gesture to be: iconic
> > > and improvisational.Speech with expressive intonation and evaluative
> > > overtones is really a lot more like gesture then like lines of
> > > computer code.
> > >
> > > In fact it seems to me that with a whole range of emotions (which
> > > we might call the "higher emotions" by analogy with the higher
> > > psychological functions that Vygotsky posits) are not only expressed
> > > by speech but mediated and constructed by speech, so permeated with
> > > speech that language is as much a part of the emotion as bodily
> > > feelings or even more.
> > >
> > > These include all the emotions that Vygotsky writes about in the
> > > Psychology of Art, but they also include the sort of emotions that
> > > are central to ethics education (that's my big project this summer).
> > > And it seems to me that with these language-mediated emotions, the
> > > relationship between "feelings" and "emotions" that Damasio claims
> > > has to be reversed.
> > >
> > > Damasio really thinks that "feelings" come very much after the
> > > fact: they are "subordinated" to bodily states, to use the expression
> > > that so annoyed Andy. (I'm not sure why we can't say "subordinated",
> > > since Marxists certainly do use the term "superstructure" and base,
> > > and a base is be definition logically prior to a superstructure.) But
> > > in your data it seems to me that feelings come into being through
> > > their expression.
> > >
> > > Damasio thinks that we have some way of evaluating events for
> > > their emotional content without actually reacting emotionally to
> > > them, as when you see a car headed toward you and turn away without
> > > thinking or even feeling very much and the emotion that attends on a
> > > narrow brush with death comes very much after the fact. But in your
> > > data it seems to me that Jack needs to UNDERSTAND verbal interactions
> > > first before he can evaluate their emotional content: Jack needs to
> > > COMPREHEND (yes, consciously!) the lukewarm response of his superiors
> > > before he can experience disappointment and react with cynicism.
> > >
> > > I guess I don't think Jack's experience is a matter of chickens
> > > and eggs, or even of knowing that one was successful mediating a
> > > bodily state which then mediates performances that are far beyond
> > > normal. That would be true if there were no social dimension to
> > > success; that is, if it were not dependent on explicit, conscious,
> > > even verbal recognition.
> > >
> > > (To tell you the truth, I was a little saddened by the ending of
> > > the article.The idea of Jack and Ellen living from hand to mouth and
> > > from grant to grant does not seem to me to bode at all well for the
> > > future of their project or even of their current high morale. Here in
> > > Korea, every primary school teacher is a national civil servant with
> > > permanent tenure, and this is an extremely important part of their
> > > high social status, their desirability as marriage partners, and of
> > > course their self-esteem. It even has a noticeable effect on my
> > > graduate students; since they do not really require their MAs for
> > > advancement, they are quite willing to undertake risky research
> > > projects, like our current one on ethics education! The whole idea
> > > teaching ethical principles using rewards and punishments is not a
> > > little self-contradictory, and so is the attempt to stimulate
> > > intellectual adventurousness with carrots and sticks.)
> > >
> > > One of my grad students was playing a game with her kids called
> > > "Find the Banana" which involved hiding a banana behind some cards
> > > (which represented activities and days of the week) and then guessing
> > > which card had the banana by asking "Can you go swimming on Monday?"
> > > "Yes/no" The problem was that the kids kept turning around and
> > > peeking when she hid the banana, and so the game was over too
> > > quickly. In fury, she seized the banana, peeled it and devoured it
> > > before the children's appalled eyes. She then brandished the banana
> > > skin and told the children they would henceforth have to play for an
> > > empty peel.
> > >
> > > Soon the banana skin became a kind of trophy, a little like the
> > > World Cup. When one team one the banana skin, it was displayed
> > > proudly and prominently on the team leader's desk until the next team
> > > won it back. The banana had gone from being a pure use value to an
> > > exchange value, from a means to a physical state of well-being to a
> > > signifier of social status alone.
> > >
> > > From that point on the children saw no point in peeking to see
> > > where the banana peel was hidden.The first priority was now last, and
> > > the last priority was now first; obeying the rule on not peeking was
> > > now a precondition for the social signficance attendant on winning
> > > the Golden Banana Skin, and the idea of consuming the banana dwindled
> > > into insignificance. The corresponding emotions also underwent a
> > > transition, from the lower banana-mediated emotions to the higher
> > > banana-peel mediated emotions. So you see it is not just academics
> > > who intellectualize these things!
> > >
> > > David Kellogg
> > > Seoul National University of Education
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
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Received on Fri Aug 31 15:16 PDT 2007