Re: [xmca] intersubjectivity, deception, perhaps also theory of mind

Yes, that seems right, Michael. However, we are facing at least two problems
in trying
to analyse the data, and they may be insurmountable.

To play a game you have to achieve some degree of intersubjectivity
concerning the game and its rules. But this is a strategy game that
involves, as the transcripts and
fieldnotes indicate, deliberate deception. Now, how do you specify the
situation.
They have shared understanding of playing the game. But when one player
seeks to
decieve another (groans about a "great move" the other has made when in fact
it is
a bad move and the groan is meant to encourage if) what is the state of
intersubjectivity?
Person 1 may share Person 2's subjective interpretation while Person2, being
decieved,
does not understand Person 1's subjective interpretation. And so on
infinitum.

Never mind that we have no video, just audio plus observer notes. The
problem itself
appears intractable on the basis of the data we have.

By all means, disabuse me of my scepticism!!!
mike

On 4/30/07, Wolff-Michael Roth <mroth@uvic.ca> wrote:
>
> Isn't it that without intersubjectivity you couldn't even start a
> game let alone talk let alone make more intersubjectivity, let alone
> raising subjectivity and intersubjectivity as a problem???
>
> Michael
>
> On 25-Apr-07, at 8:46 AM, Stetsenko, Anna wrote:
>
> Mike, I recommend "Collaborative congnition" by Bearison & Dorval
> (2002) - they analyzed rules negotiation during game format to
> access intersubjectivity. Seems closely related to your interest and
> definitely not above the horizon.
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of Mike Cole
> Sent: Tue 4/24/2007 10:32 PM
> To: Paul Dillon
> Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] intersubjectivity, deception, perhaps also theory
> of mind
>
>
>
> Hi Paul et al--
>
> Seems like Minati and I have taken on a task that may be well over our
> heads. And not only our heads. We asked Mike tomasello the same
> questions
> about the relationship
> between intersubjectivity, deception, and (implicitly) theory of mind we
> asked you. Everyone comes back with answers that point over the horizon
> (Martin-- by coincidence, my
> first experiment in grad school was also on prisoners' dilemma-- lets
> hear
> it for serendipity!!!). But Sartre, Searle, and other philosophers,
> and even
> GO masters, only leave me
> in confusion. Seems time to sound the retreat to more accessible
> issues. !!
> mike
> (ps. Minati with her deeper knowledge of Indian culture and
> philosophy may
> have other ideas!)
>
>
> On 4/24/07, Paul Dillon <phd_crit_think@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > But just in case, check out the oldest game on earth, 5000+ years, and
> > still no computer can even beat an amateur master . .
> >
> > http://www.pandanet.co.jp/English/glgo/
> >
> > Deep blue shows the shallowness of chess/western mind, Kasparov
> > saying: it
> > was as though the machine read my mind! 1 million dollars for a
> > computer
> > program to beat an amateur go masters (SAY 2000 IN CHESS)
> >
> > By the way, how do you evaluate the gaze of a chess or go player
> > as s/he
> > looks at the opponent to judge whether s/he has grasped the
> > intention of the
> > play? That's really one for ethnographemics, yeah?
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> > *Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>* wrote:
> >
> > Dear XMCA-o-philes........
> >
> > Our visitor Minati has engaged me in working with her on kids
> > playing a
> > complicated game. What we have is a running
> > transcript of the narrative and observational notes (no videotape).
> > From
> > preliminary analysis, we want to talk about the players
> > establishing joint attention and intersubjectivity (they are both
> > attending
> > to the game, they know the rules, etc.) but they are both trying to
> > win
> > and
> > engage in clearly deceptive behaviors.
> >
> > We have been looking for a literature that combines intersubjectivity,
> > deception, and perhaps theory of mind. The Machiavellian
> > intelligence literature ought to have it, but we have not found it
> > (and we
> > are talking humans here, not chimps, and 8-16
> > year old humans, not infants).
> >
> > Can you provide us with any pointers of where.how to look?
> > mike (& Minati)
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
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> >
> >
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Received on Mon Apr 30 11:41 PDT 2007