Re: [xmca] intersubjectivity, deception, perhaps also theory of mind

From: Wolff-Michael Roth <mroth who-is-at>
Date: Mon Apr 30 2007 - 10:30:44 PDT

Isn't it that without intersubjectivity you couldn't even start a
game let alone talk let alone make more intersubjectivity, let alone
raising subjectivity and intersubjectivity as a problem???


On 25-Apr-07, at 8:46 AM, Stetsenko, Anna wrote:

Mike, I recommend "Collaborative congnition" by Bearison & Dorval
(2002) - they analyzed rules negotiation during game format to
access intersubjectivity. Seems closely related to your interest and
definitely not above the horizon.


From: on behalf of Mike Cole
Sent: Tue 4/24/2007 10:32 PM
To: Paul Dillon
Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] intersubjectivity, deception, perhaps also theory
of mind

Hi Paul et al--

Seems like Minati and I have taken on a task that may be well over our
heads. And not only our heads. We asked Mike tomasello the same
about the relationship
between intersubjectivity, deception, and (implicitly) theory of mind we
asked you. Everyone comes back with answers that point over the horizon
(Martin-- by coincidence, my
first experiment in grad school was also on prisoners' dilemma-- lets
it for serendipity!!!). But Sartre, Searle, and other philosophers,
and even
GO masters, only leave me
in confusion. Seems time to sound the retreat to more accessible
issues. !!
(ps. Minati with her deeper knowledge of Indian culture and
philosophy may
have other ideas!)

On 4/24/07, Paul Dillon <> wrote:
> But just in case, check out the oldest game on earth, 5000+ years, and
> still no computer can even beat an amateur master . .
> Deep blue shows the shallowness of chess/western mind, Kasparov
> saying: it
> was as though the machine read my mind! 1 million dollars for a
> computer
> program to beat an amateur go masters (SAY 2000 IN CHESS)
> By the way, how do you evaluate the gaze of a chess or go player
> as s/he
> looks at the opponent to judge whether s/he has grasped the
> intention of the
> play? That's really one for ethnographemics, yeah?
> Paul
> *Mike Cole <>* wrote:
> Dear XMCA-o-philes........
> Our visitor Minati has engaged me in working with her on kids
> playing a
> complicated game. What we have is a running
> transcript of the narrative and observational notes (no videotape).
> From
> preliminary analysis, we want to talk about the players
> establishing joint attention and intersubjectivity (they are both
> attending
> to the game, they know the rules, etc.) but they are both trying to
> win
> and
> engage in clearly deceptive behaviors.
> We have been looking for a literature that combines intersubjectivity,
> deception, and perhaps theory of mind. The Machiavellian
> intelligence literature ought to have it, but we have not found it
> (and we
> are talking humans here, not chimps, and 8-16
> year old humans, not infants).
> Can you provide us with any pointers of to look?
> mike (& Minati)
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