Dear Martin and all,
I absolutely agree. The same thought is in Vygotsky's Educational
Psychology, where he uses a "gardening" metaphor to say that you cannot
teach people directly but only through creating an environment in which,
through which and by which they would learn.
Mike used the example of the Iranian revolutionary guards sending
children to the mine-fields with plastic keys which, they said, would
lead them straight to the paradise if a bomb goes off. And they did. The
keys were mediating the idea...
When I mentioned that an idea has a force in it, I did not imply a
direct force, like a divine force or a ghost-like force... all I meant
is that ideas and imagination -- are processes we are striving to
understand.
It does not mean that these processes are non-material, that they are
direct, or that they are only carried out within a scull (or body) of an
individual...
It is precisely the "idea of plastic keys leading to heaven" that we are
interested in -- but not the idea of "plastic keys" as "plastic keys".
And that is the way I understand "free" -- "free to create meaning which
goes beyond the given". It is also obvious that at any point in that
process there are sets of constraints, and that the "freedom of thought"
or existence of "will" has to be defined relationally.
Ana
Martin Packer wrote:
> Judy, Ana,
>
> I read Luria, as cited by Mike, perhaps a little differently:
>
> "Many observations support our view that the consideration of the voluntary
> act as accomplished by "will-power" is a myth and that the human cannot by
> direct force control his behavior any more than "a shadow can carry stones".
>
> I'd place emphasis on Luria's word 'direct.' I think he was saying that we
> cannot control our behavior simply by willing ourselves to do something
> (following from a decision reached by means of thought or otherwise).
> Rather, we have to transform our environment, so that it then enables (or
> constrains!) the behavior we wish to perform. (I'm not sure I think this is
> always the case, but I'm sure it often is.) In a sense, then, the
> environment 'causes' our behavior. But since it is we who arranged the
> environment, this causality is under our control. And once again individual
> action is mediated by public artifacts.
>
> If a teacher wants children to behave differently in the classroom,
> requesting or demanding that they do so has little effect. But change the
> way the classroom is organized...
>
> Martin
>
> On 4/23/06 12:45 PM, "Ana Marjanovic-Shane" <ana@zmajcenter.org> wrote:
>
>
>> Dear Judy,
>> so glad to hear from you! Maybe we are using the word "free" in a
>> different sense.
>> Let's turn your example upside down. What about the torturer?? One: can
>> a torturer stop the torture "at free will"? Also: is a torturer
>> responsible?? All of these are relevant to understand what we mean by
>> FREE will/ or freedom?? What can we "choose" to do, up to what degree of
>> "freedom" or, is EVERYTHING we do determined by forces outside of our
>> ability to control or maybe even to understand?
>> Ana
>>
>> Judith Vera Diamondstone wrote:
>>
>>> Thinking has some force to it, Ana, but it is not free will.
>>>
>>> Think, if you will, of individuals under torture. That's the thought
>>> experiment I apply to such questions. Some "break"; some don't. No one thinks
>>> their way out of the torture that's inflicted. Do you think the ones who
>>> don't break exercise free will?
>>>
>>> I would say they exercise constraints they have practiced in other situations
>>> in the past, & they have learned to read the conditions in such a way that
>>> 'not-breaking' is desirable.
>>>
>>> Judy
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]On
>>> Behalf Of Ana Marjanovic-Shane
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 12:55 AM
>>> To: mcole@weber.ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] uncertainites
>>>
>>>
>>> I think that Luria was not right in that and that people-kind proved
>>> many times that "a shadow can carry stones" indeed.
>>> In fact I think that our whole science (social sciences) exists because
>>> we believe that thinking (shadow) has some force in it.
>>> Don't you think?
>>> Ana
>>>
>>> Mike Cole wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I believe the issue was constraints and free will, donna and don. Sorry for
>>>> the distraction of too many words.
>>>>
>>>> These were the one's I was focused on. If you are interested in persuing the
>>>> issue beyond snuffing it, lets.
>>>>
>>>> Are constraints a way of avoiding the issue of free will? And will? Luria
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "Many observations support our view that the consideration of the voluntary
>>>> act as accomplished by "will-power" is a myth and that the human cannot by
>>>> direct force control his behavior any more than "a shadow can carry stones".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sniff.
>>>> mike
>>>>
>>>> On 4/21/06, Russell, Donna L <russelldl@umkc.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Don
>>>>>
>>>>> --for more word fun--
>>>>>
>>>>> " When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said,
>>>>> "It means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less."
>>>>> "The question is, said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many
>>>>> different
>>>>> things."
>>>>> "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty,
>>>>> "which is to be the master--that's all."
>>>>>
>>>>> Lewis Carroll
>>>>> THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS
>>>>>
>>>>> Donna
>>>>>
>>>>> Donna L. Russell, Ph.D.
>>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>>> Instructional Technology
>>>>> Curriculum and Instructional Leadership
>>>>> School of Education
>>>>> University of Missouri-Kansas City
>>>>> (email) russelldl@umkc.edu <mailto:russelldl@umkc.edu>
>>>>> (website) http://r.web.umkc.edu/russelldl/ <
>>>>> http://r.web.umkc.edu/russelldl>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Quasi-Bedurfnisse" is the sound I make when I sneeze. But I love
>>>>> learning new words!
>>>>>
>>>>> Don Cunningham
>>>>> Indiana University
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> xmca mailing list
>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
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>
>
>
-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ana Marjanovic'-Shane,Ph.D.151 W. Tulpehocken St.
Philadelphia, PA 19144
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