Judy, Ana,
I read Luria, as cited by Mike, perhaps a little differently:
"Many observations support our view that the consideration of the voluntary
act as accomplished by "will-power" is a myth and that the human cannot by
direct force control his behavior any more than "a shadow can carry stones".
I'd place emphasis on Luria's word 'direct.' I think he was saying that we
cannot control our behavior simply by willing ourselves to do something
(following from a decision reached by means of thought or otherwise).
Rather, we have to transform our environment, so that it then enables (or
constrains!) the behavior we wish to perform. (I'm not sure I think this is
always the case, but I'm sure it often is.) In a sense, then, the
environment 'causes' our behavior. But since it is we who arranged the
environment, this causality is under our control. And once again individual
action is mediated by public artifacts.
If a teacher wants children to behave differently in the classroom,
requesting or demanding that they do so has little effect. But change the
way the classroom is organized...
Martin
On 4/23/06 12:45 PM, "Ana Marjanovic-Shane" <ana@zmajcenter.org> wrote:
> Dear Judy,
> so glad to hear from you! Maybe we are using the word "free" in a
> different sense.
> Let's turn your example upside down. What about the torturer?? One: can
> a torturer stop the torture "at free will"? Also: is a torturer
> responsible?? All of these are relevant to understand what we mean by
> FREE will/ or freedom?? What can we "choose" to do, up to what degree of
> "freedom" or, is EVERYTHING we do determined by forces outside of our
> ability to control or maybe even to understand?
> Ana
>
> Judith Vera Diamondstone wrote:
>> Thinking has some force to it, Ana, but it is not free will.
>>
>> Think, if you will, of individuals under torture. That's the thought
>> experiment I apply to such questions. Some "break"; some don't. No one thinks
>> their way out of the torture that's inflicted. Do you think the ones who
>> don't break exercise free will?
>>
>> I would say they exercise constraints they have practiced in other situations
>> in the past, & they have learned to read the conditions in such a way that
>> 'not-breaking' is desirable.
>>
>> Judy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]On
>> Behalf Of Ana Marjanovic-Shane
>> Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 12:55 AM
>> To: mcole@weber.ucsd.edu; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: Re: [xmca] uncertainites
>>
>>
>> I think that Luria was not right in that and that people-kind proved
>> many times that "a shadow can carry stones" indeed.
>> In fact I think that our whole science (social sciences) exists because
>> we believe that thinking (shadow) has some force in it.
>> Don't you think?
>> Ana
>>
>> Mike Cole wrote:
>>
>>> I believe the issue was constraints and free will, donna and don. Sorry for
>>> the distraction of too many words.
>>>
>>> These were the one's I was focused on. If you are interested in persuing the
>>> issue beyond snuffing it, lets.
>>>
>>> Are constraints a way of avoiding the issue of free will? And will? Luria
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> "Many observations support our view that the consideration of the voluntary
>>> act as accomplished by "will-power" is a myth and that the human cannot by
>>> direct force control his behavior any more than "a shadow can carry stones".
>>>
>>>
>>> Sniff.
>>> mike
>>>
>>> On 4/21/06, Russell, Donna L <russelldl@umkc.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Don
>>>>
>>>> --for more word fun--
>>>>
>>>> " When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said,
>>>> "It means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less."
>>>> "The question is, said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many
>>>> different
>>>> things."
>>>> "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty,
>>>> "which is to be the master--that's all."
>>>>
>>>> Lewis Carroll
>>>> THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS
>>>>
>>>> Donna
>>>>
>>>> Donna L. Russell, Ph.D.
>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>> Instructional Technology
>>>> Curriculum and Instructional Leadership
>>>> School of Education
>>>> University of Missouri-Kansas City
>>>> (email) russelldl@umkc.edu <mailto:russelldl@umkc.edu>
>>>> (website) http://r.web.umkc.edu/russelldl/ <
>>>> http://r.web.umkc.edu/russelldl>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Quasi-Bedurfnisse" is the sound I make when I sneeze. But I love
>>>> learning new words!
>>>>
>>>> Don Cunningham
>>>> Indiana University
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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