David
Ok, differently positioned.... as a result of which we are all better versed
in some
aspects of the common, huge, heterogeneous field of interest. I appreciate
your
formulation of the cognitive/metacognitive distinction and its deployment,
but it
seems we are rudderless in trying to link that to the way in which Jan, and
perhaps
David, are seeking to bring norms-as-reasons into the discussion in a
non-cartesian
way.
mike
On 10/7/05, David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike, surely not "better versed" (I'm not familiar with McDowell, or with
> Bakhurst's criticisms of your work), but perhaps differently positioned.
> In
> a nutshell, I think that metacognition is an internalized discourse, not
> an
> externalized one. Our basic cognitive processes (the foundation for our
> competencies) are recursively adaptive, massively parallel, and
> correlational (connectionist talk). Metacognitive self-talk imputes to our
> cognition levels of organization and structure that originate in a social
> commentary, but aren't really operative in our cognition. Now, this social
> commentary can be useful in focussing the cognitive apparatus on elements
> of experience that do participate in cognitive processes. But this is
> completely different than the veridical silver-bullet many educators take
> it to be.
> David
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike Cole
> <lchcmike who-is-at gmail.c To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> om> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Sent by: cc: (bcc: David H Kirshner/dkirsh/LSU)
> xmca-bounces who-is-at webe Subject: Re: [xmca] ISCAR - Sevilla 2005 -- Theoretical
> r.ucsd.edu <http://r.ucsd.edu> Concepts in CHAT and their connestion to
> physical
> concepts and knowledge
>
> 10/07/2005 05:10
> PM
> Please respond to
> mcole; Please
> respond to
> "eXtended Mind,
> Culture,
> Activity"
>
>
>
>
>
>
> David-- You appear to be much better versed in this discussion than I am
> so
> perhaps you can provide some help. I first encountered this sort of
> argument in the writing of David Bakhurst who was using a philospher named
> McDowell. David appeared to believe that my work suffered from failing to
> appreciate McDowell's ideas. Jan was using another philosopher whose name
> I
> do not recall, but who, if I am correct, is in the same general area. Both
> were severely criticized by a member of the audience but I am not enough
> of
> a Hegel or Spinoza scholar to have a ghost of a chance of evaluating what
> was going on. However, I respect both Jan and David, neither of whom, I
> strongly suspect, would agree that they were flashlights(!).
> So I am left wondering what this is all about.
> mike
>
> On 10/7/05, David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Lois,
> >
> > I share (what I sense is) your frustration with this debate. I see the
> > insistence on reason, as a variety of dualist thinking entering even
> > (otherwise) sophisticated discourses. Now the caveat that people "act
> > ALWAYS from reason [but] not necessarily with awareness of it"
> complicates
> > the matter by allowing the possibility that one's actions conform to
> > reasonableness criteria even if one's personal mentality doesn't
> actually
> > participate in explicit processes of reasoning. But I think this is just
> > an
> > obfuscation of the basic position that humans are basically rational
> > creatures. One sees the influence of this perspective in a wide range of
> > pedagogical discourses (e.g., cognitivist and constructivist
> > positions--and
> > sometimes sociocultural, too?) that construe metacognitive mastery as
> the
> > primary goal of education--the gateway to everything else. My favorite
> > quote on the matter (though framed in terms of consciousness) diagnoses
> > the
> > causes of the position in almost poetic language:
> >
> > Consciousness is a much smaller part of our mental life than we are
> > conscious of, because we cannot be conscious of what we are not
> conscious
> > of. How simple that is to say; how difficult to appreciate. It is like
> > asking a flashlight in a dark room to search around for something that
> > does
> > not have any light shining upon it. The flashlight, since there is light
> > in
> > whatever direction it turns, would have to conclude that there is light
> > everywhere. And so consciousness can seem to pervade all mentality when
> > actually it does not. (Jaynes, 1976, p. 23)
> >
> > Jaynes, J. (1976). The origin of consciousness in the breakdown of the
> > bicameral mind. Toronto: University of Toronto Press.
> >
> > David Kirshner
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Lois Holzman
> > <lholzman who-is-at eastsideins To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > titute.org <http://titute.org> <http://titute.org>> mcole@weber.ucsd.edu,
> " <
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Sent by: cc: (bcc: David H Kirshner/dkirsh/LSU)
> > xmca-bounces who-is-at weber.uc Subject: Re: [xmca] ISCAR - Sevilla 2005 --
> > Theoretical
> > sd.edu <http://sd.edu> <http://sd.edu> Concepts in CHAT and their
> connestion to physical
> > concepts and knowledge
> >
> > 10/06/2005 06:51 PM
> > Please respond to
> > "eXtended Mind,
> > Culture, Activity"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I was also at the session Mike mentions below. While I too would like to
> > explore more any relationship between Vygotsky and Spinoza. And that
> talk
> > brought another thing up. I found Jan's talk to raise an
> intriguing/thorny
> > issue. I can't find my notes right now so my summary will be only enough
> > to
> > make what I'm thinking (perhaps) clear. Jan was saying that human beings
> > act
> > ALWAYS from reason‹‹not necessarily with awareness of it but
> nevertheless
> > from reason. I was able to raise the following point with her in the
> > session
> > and later in a too short conversation: The position she was putting
> forth
> > was a conversational dead end because with her position, anything
> anybody
> > said will be interpreted within her framework and would overdetermine
> any
> > conversation on the matter. If people who did not agree that human
> beings
> > always act out of reason were we to say so, she would ask us/assume we
> > were
> > acting out of reason, i.e., hear/interpret/place what we said in her
> > framework. So how could we go on? How can we talk together?
> > Not all differences of opinion get deadlocked in this way but I think
> this
> > one does.
> > Any thoughts?
> > Lois
> >
> >
> >
> > > From: Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > > Reply-To: mcole@weber.ucsd.edu, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> > > <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 18:08:57 +0200
> > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] ISCAR - Sevilla 2005 -- Theoretical Concepts in
> CHAT
> > and
> > > their connestion to physical concepts and knowledge
> > >
> > > Thanks Ana, for your overview. I am checking with folks at LCHC about
> > how
> > we
> > > could
> > > most easily make all the abstracts of xmca members, or that xmca
> members
> > > want to
> > > discuss, gathered together in one place.
> > > I have a few clear minutes to write and have been reading with
> interest
> > > what others have
> > > been posting. My own feeling is that concrete issues from concrete
> > sessions
> > > might be
> > > of interest as possible markers for further discussion.
> > > For example, at a symposium chaird by Jan Derry, Vladislav Lektorsky
> > talked
> > > about the
> > > centrality of formative experiments as central to cultural-historical
> > > methodology. this interests
> > > me a lot (I, too, identified this as an issue in need of discussion).
> I
> > do
> > > not have the text and
> > > Slava read in English which made it difficult to follow, but that
> topic
> > and
> > > his ideas are of
> > > interest to me for followup.
> > > David Bakhurst talked about questions of mediation. I got a few
> minutes
> > to
> > > talk to David about
> > > his paper which is on what is another of my core interests. I found it
> > very
> > > odd that he could
> > > raise as a possible difficulty the idea that from a chat perspective,
> > the
> > > world could be seen
> > > as accessible ONLY through a mediator. This is clearly not the
> position
> > > taken by LSV or any
> > > of his immediate colleagues, or by anyone I know of working in this
> > > tradition. Much more could
> > > and should be discussed vis a mediation (e,g. our earlier discussion
> of
> > > whethe operations
> > > are mediated, or if, once they become ¨transparent¨they no longer are.
> > Jan
> > > did not get enough
> > > time to talk, but she raised some (apparently disputable) suggestions
> > about
> > > the relevance of
> > > Hegel and Spinoza. Since the lsv-Spinoza connection is little
> discussed
> > and
> > > the issue of
> > > cognition/emotion is much discussed, this was something I thought
> worth
> > > following up on.
> > > My computer connection is outta money.
> > > Other comments to come
> > > mike
> > >
> > > On 10/3/05, Ana Marjanovic-Shane <ana@zmajcenter.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> ISCAR in Sevilla, September 2005:
> > >>
> > >> In a conference of this scope, where one cannot hope to have attended
> > >> even one 10th of all the presentations, it is hard to give any
> overall
> > >> evaluations or even impressions. But, XMCA members who did not come
> to
> > >> Sevilla, ought to have some notion of what went on there for 5 days
> in
> > >> September 2005. So those of us who were there really need to put our
> > >> thoughts together and give some descriptions of what went on. That is
> > >> not easy. There are different aspects one can write about, different
> > >> themes that ran through presentations, different aspects of
> > >> organization. I will be working from my notes -- taken in haste
> during
> > >> the workshops, from the abstracts we received and from some other
> > >> sources people gave us (handouts, web pages). It would be very useful
> > if
> > >> someone at the XMCA headquarters could put the abstracts in pdf
> format
> > >> on the server so that everyone could have an access to them. (Mike,
> is
> > >> it possible to organize it?).
> > >>
> > >> The conference was held in 3 buildings of the Department of
> Psychology,
> > >> Sociology and Philosophy, at the University of Sevilla. Those are new
> > >> buildings (not part of the University main venue in the old Tobacco
> > >> Factory), built with inner balconies and great visibility, so they
> were
> > >> easy to navigate. The workshops were held in auditoriums, most of
> which
> > >> had a classic layout: a podium with a blackboard and projection
> screen,
> > >> and then rows of seats and desks. Everything fixed -- unmovable.
> There
> > >> were just a few rooms without fixed benches -- with panels and
> chairs.
> > >> They were used for Poster sessions. My first fear was that the first
> > >> part of our session was assigned a room with fixed benches. We would
> > >> have to move it -- since it was an interactive drama workshop where
> > >> people have to have space to move, group and regroups and play!!
> > >> Fortunately, it was not: we were given one of the poster rooms!!
> > >>
> > >> We usually don't consciously think of the space and its qualities
> when
> > >> we participate in activities with intellectual content. But it is
> > >> important. If our beliefs about the mediated quality of intellectual
> > >> growth and functioning are true, then we have to think about the
> space
> > >> as mediated and mediating. European universities (at least three of
> > them
> > >> I know, and now Sevilla) are still mediated by another paradigm about
> > >> intellectual processing and education. A paradigm that Vygotsky
> started
> > >> to question 100 years ago. It takes much more to have this
> > understanding
> > >> of ourselves trickle down to those who plan and build schools and
> > >> universities.
> > >>
> > >> Participants came from many parts of the world. But not from
> > everywhere.
> > >> I was happy to see people from Africa -- some of them from Rwanda!
> > There
> > >> were not many Africans in the previous ISCRAT conferences.
> Participants
> > >> came from all continents. There were many people known to us on the
> > XMCA
> > >> discussion list in the conference: N. Ares, D. Bakhurst, S. Chaiklin,
> > M.
> > >> Cole, M. de Haan, J. Derry, Y. Engeström, S. Gaskin, A. Goncu, P.
> > >> Hakkarainen, L. Holzman, V. John-Stainer, E. Lampert-Shepel, C. Lee,
> E.
> > >> Matusov, D. Robbins, W-M. Roth, A. Stetsenko, A. Surmava, J.
> Valsiner,
> > >> B. van Oers, N. Veresov, G. Wells, J. Wertsch..., There were many
> more
> > >> we have to learn about.
> > >>
> > >> The conference program listed two main themes with lots of sub
> themes:
> > >> THEME A.- Theoretical and Methodological Issues
> > >> THEME B.- Acting in changing worlds
> > >> Each workshop was classified within one of the two themes and within
> > one
> > >> of its subtopics. What was hard on the conference organizers and on
> the
> > >> conference attendees was to separate workshops that tackled similar
> > >> problems in time: there were many workshops I wanted to go to, but
> they
> > >> were held at the same time. I always had to choose between, at least
> > two
> > >> competing workshops and more often between three or four. That was
> very
> > >> hard to juggle. I ended up running from one to another, missing
> chunks
> > >> from each workshop that I wanted to hear, or just worrying that I was
> > >> missing something else.
> > >>
> > >> Before the conference, I made my own selection of workshops which
> have
> > >> something to do with play and imagination. That was my personal
> program
> > >> guide, I am attaching here. However, I ended up changing it to
> > >> accommodate other talks which were also important to me. [Other
> > >> participants in Sevilla: Please send your own selection of the
> > >> workshops!"]. In my next postings, I will discuss some of the
> > >> presentations I attended. I invite you who went to Sevilla to discuss
> > at
> > >> least one of the presentations: one paper, one concept you heard
> > >> discussed, one thought you found important in Sevilla. Each one of us
> > >> has a special "pet" interest, and sometimes, special ways to
> understand
> > >> or to "objectify" this interest through different selection of topics
> > >> and different people. Maybe you want to connect the questions we
> asked
> > >> before the Conference with your experience in the conference? Or
> maybe
> > >> you would want to mention just something unexpected, something that
> > made
> > >> you think?
> > >>
> > >> Until later.
> > >>
> > >> Ana
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> Ana Marjanovic-Shane
> > >>
> > >> 151 W. Tulpehocken St.
> > >>
> > >> Philadelphia, PA 19144
> > >>
> > >> Home office: (215) 843-2909
> > >>
> > >> Mobile: (267) 334-2905
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> xmca mailing list
> > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Tue Nov 01 2005 - 01:00:20 PST