What you write seems perfectly reasonable to me, Julian. But I thought you
were trying
to contrast chat and socio-cultural approaches that you saw as distinct from
each other
in the ISCAR discussions. I missed a beat or three?
mike
On 10/8/05, Julian Williams <MEWSSJSW@fs1.mcc.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> Mike, BB, Ana and all
>
> Just developing point 1 of this strand (the other does not
> sem to be taken up as yet).
>
> Lets take one example: the idea that dialectics and
> Marxist analysis is a tool fit for certain social analyses
> but perhaps not others.
>
> The implication of Marx's analysis of the commodity,
> labour, and capitalism as the contemporary mode of
> production seems to me one that can never be ignored in
> any analysis of the activity of work/labour. For instance,
> wherever humans are engaged in work activity it suggests a
> dialectical contradiction inherent in the object of
> activity itself: eg in its 'use' and 'exchange' value.
>
> Within the education system this may be extended if we
> examine the commodification of knowledge within the
> educational system and process. The alienaion of the
> learner from their leanng seems to be a vital case in
> oint. I see it most dy in my School/office, and I am
> guessing it is even significant in the learning of pre-
> schoolers. Here in the UK you know we actuially have a pre-
> school curriculum, and people planned in-vitro base line
> assessments...
>
> ;)
>
> I spose one could argue thatthere are contexts and
> problems in which the kind of analysis of alientation that
> I refer to are not central. I was thinking in my original
> post on this strand of the case of the analysis of the
> work of directors of drug-testing centres for athletes...
> and how could one neglect to expand the analysis to
> include a view of the commodification of the Olympics that
> leads to this kind of self-abuse inthe first place?
>
> I suggest that expanding the analysis in this way is
> always likely to become critical, and there might be good
> reasons (e.g. in reseach funded by industry or government)
> for neglecting/suppressing this expansion in ones
> (alienated) research practice: I have plenty of examples
> in mind, some of which I am legally bound by contct not to
> publicise.
>
> Julian
>
>
>
> > Early morning in California when my body says I should
> be going to sleep in
> > madrid creates
> > an odd kind of reflective time, before my social group
> demands that I pay
> > for my sin of absence.
> >
> > I noted examples of each of Julian's two kinds of
> tension lines during ISCA
> > R
> > and perhaps they line up in some ways with the
> proclivities of those who
> > entered through the two prior organizations. Whatever,
> this kind of
> > discussion, grounded in examples, ought to help us to
> straighten matters ou
> > t
> > for ourselves.
> >
> > Some points we can probably agree upon. The adherence
> to "the oriiginal" fo
> > r
> > he sake of loyalty, "come what may" seems unfortunate,
> but so does throwing
> > away the original because it ceases to be modish. There
> was, from my
> > perspective, as much mindless attribution of minlessness
> to uses of Yrjo's
> > expanded triangle as there were mindless uses. The model
> is not the process
> > ,
> > the map is not the territory, time is difficult to
> represent with a
> > triangles and a spiral of triangles only helps
> > a little. This much has been known by yrjo and those who
> work with him for
> > many years. The original motivation for the extended
> triangle can be found
> > on the helsinki website (or through
> > lchc as an associated site) and is well worth reading.
> >
> > I think it would be helpful for me to have a better idea
> of what the "twain
> > "
> > are in "never the twain will meet" bb. Identify versus
> activity? Using
> > dialectial concepts with knowledge of their origins
> versus,
> > vesus what? Social learning theory? Thinking that
> practice is an essential
> > part of the methodology of scholarly practice? My guess
> is that if we were
> > to make up a list of twains, people might actually show
> distributions acros
> > s
> > pairs of terms.
> >
> > One issue has been of particuar concern to me in reading
> manuscripts
> > submitted to XMCA and
> > other venues where people use what might be called
> the "ISCAR Family of
> > FUzzy Concepts":
> > Is the analysis in any sense historical? Does it
> describe/analyse a
> > person's/group's/institution's
> > behavior over time and does it relate transformations to
> the dynamics
> > brought about by the
> > temporarl dynamics of different parts of the factors
> identified in the
> > analytic analysis? If does not,
> > I find the resulting conclusions problematic.
> >
> > Related to this is whether the analyst makes, or tries
> to make, a systemati
> > c
> > distinction between
> > action and activity? My impression that many do not and
> that their analyses
> > become difficult to
> > interpret as a result.
> >
> > Both of these concern could be applied to analyses of
> building an airplane
> > wing or an activity to
> > promote children's development through play. methinks.
> > mike
> >
> > I wonder if others have had difficulty, as I had
> following the meeting whil
> > e
> > travelling in spain
> > explaining the purpose of the meeting. What does ISCAR
> study that one can
> > explain to a stranger
> > sitting on the neigboring seat waiting for a train?
> >
> >
> > On 10/7/05, Steve Gabosch <sgabosch@comcast.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Interestingly, my inclination about what tools to use
> to analyze the
> > > two domains Bill points to - a 3 year old's play
> behavior in a
> > > nursery school, and the historical development of
> nursery schools -
> > > seems to be the inverse of Bill's choices. For the
> former, I would
> > > tend toward using tools developed by cultural-
> historical psychology
> > > such as activity theory to try to understand the
> child's play - for
> > > example, to analyze how a particular child's use of
> language mediates
> > > their play behavior. For the latter, I would tend
> toward tools
> > > developed by historical materialist sociology such as
> social class
> > > analysis to try to understand the historical
> development of nursery
> > > schools, day care centers, etc.
> > >
> > > As for which is easier, breaking bolts loose,
> machining precision
> > > airplane parts, cutting diamonds, or caring for,
> guiding and teaching
> > > small children, I sympathize with Ana's reasons for
> choosing the
> > > latter over airplane manufacturing work. In my
> opinion, more
> > > challenging than any of these kinds of skilled work,
> however, is the
> > > work it takes to choose the right tools to analyze and
> *change* the
> > > nature of nursery schools - and by implication, other
> kinds of social
> > > institutions - and perhaps, even entire social systems.
> > >
> > > For those kinds of tools and their wielders, I look to
> democratic and
> > > working class movements for social change, and to the
> revolutionary
> > > theories Marx and his followers formulated - not
> research work guided
> > > by cultural-historical psychology, activity theory,
> Activity Systems
> > > Theory (AST), or any of the other offshoots of the
> Vygotsky
> > > school. Going back to our tool metaphors, the work of
> transforming
> > > social institutions and perhaps replacing them
> outright is the job of
> > > large democratic-minded masses and socially-minded
> working classes
> > > wielding the tools necessary to break the back of
> social reaction and
> > > repression and force deep-going social change. Breaker
> bars and
> > > large pipes are likely just the beginning of the tools
> that will be
> > > required. But the work of understanding the intricate
> developmental
> > > processes in a single human being or group of people
> requires just
> > > the opposite kind of tools - it requires the kinds of
> delicate
> > > research methods and nuanced theoretical tools that
> activity
> > > theorists and cultural-historical psychologists excel
> in. Here, I
> > > like Bill's use of diamond cutting and jeweler's tools
> as a metaphor
> > > a lot. I question whether we can transform large
> social institutions
> > > with such small and subtle tools - even if we
> capitalize and
> > > acronymize their names :-)) - but with them we can
> discover and
> > > create gems that can help point the way toward
> understanding what it
> > > means to be human, what human development really
> consists of. And
> > > that is no small contribution.
> > >
> > > - Steve
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From Bill:
> > > <snip>
> > > >But what if one is interested in the day to day
> development of 3
> > > >year old children in nursery schools? There, one sees
> children in
> > > >solitary play -- no division of labor to speak of
> among the
> > > >children, no understanding by the children of their
> roles, if they
> > > >had any, no conscious engaging in a collective object
> by the
> > > >chlidren. Activity Systems Theory does not purchase
> much here,
> > > >microgenetically. Ahh... but if one is interested in
> the
> > > >development of nursery schools, and how that
> historical development
> > > >shapes the context of the children's play -- what
> rules the adults
> > > >obey and enforce, what toys exist, what the
> caregivers must do to be
> > > >licensed? Or if one is interested in changing the
> nature of nursery
> > > >schools? Then AST methods described in LBE could
> yield large gains.
> > > >
> > > >It's more like cutting diamonds
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_cu
> > t
> > > ):
> > > >
> > > >The rule (following cleavage planes)
> > > >The tool (the cutting steel wedge)
> > > >The jewel (the outcome)
> > > >
> > > >bb
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xmca mailing list
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
>
>
>
> BTW be careful to email me at julian.williams@man.ac.uk
> and not the web mail address: if you hit reply to this it
> will only go to my webmail... which i only look at
> occasionally
>
>
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