Re: [xmca] ISCAR - Sevilla 2005 -- Theoretical Concepts in CHAT and their connestion to physical concepts and knowledge

From: Lois Holzman (lholzman@eastsideinstitute.org)
Date: Tue Oct 11 2005 - 17:51:02 PDT


I¹ve been pondering the conversation we¹re having on reason, metacognition,
consciousness, etc. and seeing whether I have something else to add to it
and, in this process, I came to wonder if there is something that we¹re all
talking about or only several different topics (I¹m fine with either or
both). I came up with a candidate for a shared topic and am interested in
whether this resonates with anyone.
 
Maybe we¹re exploring whether there are certain necessary occurrences or
attributes for something else to occur or exist (or for us to make sense of
it occurring or existing). Maybe some of us from here (actually do not even
relate to it as a presupposition) and are trying to figure out what these
things are, and others of us are interested in why this presupposition.
Going with the first ‹ that there must be something more fundamental,
deeper, higher, broader, etc. ‹ I realize that except for being interested
philosophically, I don¹t know what hinges on discovering the answer, e.g.,
that it¹s reason or consciousness, or whatever. For, if there are some
things that need to be present, for example, for learning to occur, then it
seems to me that these things are not/would not be universal but rather
completely contextualized, socially-culturally-historically.
 
In my own work the form this question has taken is something like, Do you
have to see yourself as a learner in order to learn? And if so, must this
seeing or awareness or whatever we want to call it be mentalistic and/or
cognitive? I¹ve come to think not, that all that¹s needed is an awareness
that one is participating in something that is vaguely discrete (however we
define that) ‹ not an awareness that one is doing learning or thinking or
problem solving. And that once you do it, the awareness and the it are
inseparable.
 
In the kind of educational, cultural and therapeutic work I do with
children, teens and adults ‹ so many of whom have lost the awareness and the
it ‹ participating with others in creating environments for ensemble
performances of learning is essential. It¹s through engaging in this
activity that people learn, learn how to learn, and become aware that they
are learners. Babies do it and it¹s clear with them that the learning is not
a cognitive one. I¹m not so sure it is with the rest of us either. I read
many on this list as having a different discourse than I do, but practicing
in this spirit.

Lois
 
 
 
 
 

> From: Mike Cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> Reply-To: mcole@weber.ucsd.edu, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 09:37:49 -0700
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Subject: Re: [xmca] ISCAR - Sevilla 2005 -- Theoretical Concepts in CHAT and
> their connestion to physical concepts and knowledge
>
> David
Ok, differently positioned.... as a result of which we are all better
> versed
in some
aspects of the common, huge, heterogeneous field of interest. I
> appreciate
your
formulation of the cognitive/metacognitive distinction and its
> deployment,
but it
seems we are rudderless in trying to link that to the way
> in which Jan, and
perhaps
David, are seeking to bring norms-as-reasons into
> the discussion in a
non-cartesian
way.
mike

 On 10/7/05, David H Kirshner
> <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike, surely not "better versed" (I'm not
> familiar with McDowell, or with
> Bakhurst's criticisms of your work), but
> perhaps differently positioned.
> In
> a nutshell, I think that metacognition
> is an internalized discourse, not
> an
> externalized one. Our basic cognitive
> processes (the foundation for our
> competencies) are recursively adaptive,
> massively parallel, and
> correlational (connectionist talk). Metacognitive
> self-talk imputes to our
> cognition levels of organization and structure that
> originate in a social
> commentary, but aren't really operative in our
> cognition. Now, this social
> commentary can be useful in focussing the
> cognitive apparatus on elements
> of experience that do participate in
> cognitive processes. But this is
> completely different than the veridical
> silver-bullet many educators take
> it to be.
> David
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike
> Cole
> <lchcmike who-is-at gmail.c To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> om>
> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> Sent by: cc: (bcc: David H Kirshner/dkirsh/LSU)
>
> xmca-bounces who-is-at webe Subject: Re: [xmca] ISCAR - Sevilla 2005 -- Theoretical>
> r.ucsd.edu <http://r.ucsd.edu> Concepts in CHAT and their connestion to
>
> physical
> concepts and knowledge
>
> 10/07/2005 05:10
> PM
> Please respond
> to
> mcole; Please
> respond to
> "eXtended Mind,
> Culture,
>
> Activity"
>
>
>
>
>
>
> David-- You appear to be much better versed in this
> discussion than I am
> so
> perhaps you can provide some help. I first
> encountered this sort of
> argument in the writing of David Bakhurst who was
> using a philospher named
> McDowell. David appeared to believe that my work
> suffered from failing to
> appreciate McDowell's ideas. Jan was using another
> philosopher whose name
> I
> do not recall, but who, if I am correct, is in
> the same general area. Both
> were severely criticized by a member of the
> audience but I am not enough
> of
> a Hegel or Spinoza scholar to have a ghost
> of a chance of evaluating what
> was going on. However, I respect both Jan and
> David, neither of whom, I
> strongly suspect, would agree that they were
> flashlights(!).
> So I am left wondering what this is all about.
> mike
>
> On
> 10/7/05, David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Lois,
> >
> > I
> share (what I sense is) your frustration with this debate. I see the
> >
> insistence on reason, as a variety of dualist thinking entering even
> >
> (otherwise) sophisticated discourses. Now the caveat that people "act
> >
> ALWAYS from reason [but] not necessarily with awareness of it"
> complicates
>
> > the matter by allowing the possibility that one's actions conform to
> >
> reasonableness criteria even if one's personal mentality doesn't
> actually
>
> > participate in explicit processes of reasoning. But I think this is just
> >
> an
> > obfuscation of the basic position that humans are basically rational
>
> > creatures. One sees the influence of this perspective in a wide range of
> >
> pedagogical discourses (e.g., cognitivist and constructivist
> >
> positions--and
> > sometimes sociocultural, too?) that construe metacognitive
> mastery as
> the
> > primary goal of education--the gateway to everything
> else. My favorite
> > quote on the matter (though framed in terms of
> consciousness) diagnoses
> > the
> > causes of the position in almost poetic
> language:
> >
> > Consciousness is a much smaller part of our mental life than
> we are
> > conscious of, because we cannot be conscious of what we are not
>
> conscious
> > of. How simple that is to say; how difficult to appreciate. It
> is like
> > asking a flashlight in a dark room to search around for something
> that
> > does
> > not have any light shining upon it. The flashlight, since
> there is light
> > in
> > whatever direction it turns, would have to conclude
> that there is light
> > everywhere. And so consciousness can seem to pervade
> all mentality when
> > actually it does not. (Jaynes, 1976, p. 23)
> >
> >
> Jaynes, J. (1976). The origin of consciousness in the breakdown of the
> >
> bicameral mind. Toronto: University of Toronto Press.
> >
> > David Kirshner
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Lois Holzman
> > <lholzman who-is-at eastsideins To: "eXtended
> Mind, Culture, Activity
> > titute.org <http://titute.org>
> <http://titute.org>> mcole@weber.ucsd.edu,
> " <
> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >
> Sent by: cc: (bcc: David H Kirshner/dkirsh/LSU)
> > xmca-bounces who-is-at weber.uc
> Subject: Re: [xmca] ISCAR - Sevilla 2005 --
> > Theoretical
> > sd.edu
> <http://sd.edu> <http://sd.edu> Concepts in CHAT and their
> connestion to
> physical
> > concepts and knowledge
> >
> > 10/06/2005 06:51 PM
> > Please
> respond to
> > "eXtended Mind,
> > Culture, Activity"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> > I was also at the session Mike mentions below. While I too would like
> to
> > explore more any relationship between Vygotsky and Spinoza. And that
>
> talk
> > brought another thing up. I found Jan's talk to raise an
>
> intriguing/thorny
> > issue. I can't find my notes right now so my summary
> will be only enough
> > to
> > make what I'm thinking (perhaps) clear. Jan was
> saying that human beings
> > act
> > ALWAYS from reasonÐÐnot necessarily with
> awareness of it but
> nevertheless
> > from reason. I was able to raise the
> following point with her in the
> > session
> > and later in a too short
> conversation: The position she was putting
> forth
> > was a conversational
> dead end because with her position, anything
> anybody
> > said will be
> interpreted within her framework and would overdetermine
> any
> >
> conversation on the matter. If people who did not agree that human
> beings
>
> > always act out of reason were we to say so, she would ask us/assume we
> >
> were
> > acting out of reason, i.e., hear/interpret/place what we said in
> her
> > framework. So how could we go on? How can we talk together?
> > Not
> all differences of opinion get deadlocked in this way but I think
> this
> >
> one does.
> > Any thoughts?
> > Lois
> >
> >
> >
> > > From: Mike Cole
> <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > > Reply-To: mcole@weber.ucsd.edu, "eXtended Mind,
> Culture, Activity"
> > > <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005
> 18:08:57 +0200
> > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] ISCAR - Sevilla 2005 --
> Theoretical Concepts in
> CHAT
> > and
> > > their connestion to physical
> concepts and knowledge
> > >
> > > Thanks Ana, for your overview. I am
> checking with folks at LCHC about
> > how
> > we
> > > could
> > > most easily
> make all the abstracts of xmca members, or that xmca
> members
> > > want to
>
> > > discuss, gathered together in one place.
> > > I have a few clear minutes
> to write and have been reading with
> interest
> > > what others have
> > >
> been posting. My own feeling is that concrete issues from concrete
> >
> sessions
> > > might be
> > > of interest as possible markers for further
> discussion.
> > > For example, at a symposium chaird by Jan Derry, Vladislav
> Lektorsky
> > talked
> > > about the
> > > centrality of formative experiments
> as central to cultural-historical
> > > methodology. this interests
> > > me a
> lot (I, too, identified this as an issue in need of discussion).
> I
> > do
>
> > > not have the text and
> > > Slava read in English which made it difficult
> to follow, but that
> topic
> > and
> > > his ideas are of
> > > interest to
> me for followup.
> > > David Bakhurst talked about questions of mediation. I
> got a few
> minutes
> > to
> > > talk to David about
> > > his paper which is
> on what is another of my core interests. I found it
> > very
> > > odd that he
> could
> > > raise as a possible difficulty the idea that from a chat
> perspective,
> > the
> > > world could be seen
> > > as accessible ONLY
> through a mediator. This is clearly not the
> position
> > > taken by LSV or
> any
> > > of his immediate colleagues, or by anyone I know of working in
> this
> > > tradition. Much more could
> > > and should be discussed vis a
> mediation (e,g. our earlier discussion
> of
> > > whethe operations
> > > are
> mediated, or if, once they become ¨transparent¨they no longer are.
> > Jan
> >
> > did not get enough
> > > time to talk, but she raised some (apparently
> disputable) suggestions
> > about
> > > the relevance of
> > > Hegel and
> Spinoza. Since the lsv-Spinoza connection is little
> discussed
> > and
> > >
> the issue of
> > > cognition/emotion is much discussed, this was something I
> thought
> worth
> > > following up on.
> > > My computer connection is outta
> money.
> > > Other comments to come
> > > mike
> > >
> > > On 10/3/05, Ana
> Marjanovic-Shane <ana@zmajcenter.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> ISCAR in Sevilla,
> September 2005:
> > >>
> > >> In a conference of this scope, where one cannot
> hope to have attended
> > >> even one 10th of all the presentations, it is
> hard to give any
> overall
> > >> evaluations or even impressions. But, XMCA
> members who did not come
> to
> > >> Sevilla, ought to have some notion of
> what went on there for 5 days
> in
> > >> September 2005. So those of us who
> were there really need to put our
> > >> thoughts together and give some
> descriptions of what went on. That is
> > >> not easy. There are different
> aspects one can write about, different
> > >> themes that ran through
> presentations, different aspects of
> > >> organization. I will be working
> from my notes -- taken in haste
> during
> > >> the workshops, from the
> abstracts we received and from some other
> > >> sources people gave us
> (handouts, web pages). It would be very useful
> > if
> > >> someone at the
> XMCA headquarters could put the abstracts in pdf
> format
> > >> on the server
> so that everyone could have an access to them. (Mike,
> is
> > >> it possible
> to organize it?).
> > >>
> > >> The conference was held in 3 buildings of the
> Department of
> Psychology,
> > >> Sociology and Philosophy, at the University
> of Sevilla. Those are new
> > >> buildings (not part of the University main
> venue in the old Tobacco
> > >> Factory), built with inner balconies and great
> visibility, so they
> were
> > >> easy to navigate. The workshops were held in
> auditoriums, most of
> which
> > >> had a classic layout: a podium with a
> blackboard and projection
> screen,
> > >> and then rows of seats and desks.
> Everything fixed -- unmovable.
> There
> > >> were just a few rooms without
> fixed benches -- with panels and
> chairs.
> > >> They were used for Poster
> sessions. My first fear was that the first
> > >> part of our session was
> assigned a room with fixed benches. We would
> > >> have to move it -- since
> it was an interactive drama workshop where
> > >> people have to have space to
> move, group and regroups and play!!
> > >> Fortunately, it was not: we were
> given one of the poster rooms!!
> > >>
> > >> We usually don't consciously
> think of the space and its qualities
> when
> > >> we participate in
> activities with intellectual content. But it is
> > >> important. If our
> beliefs about the mediated quality of intellectual
> > >> growth and
> functioning are true, then we have to think about the
> space
> > >> as
> mediated and mediating. European universities (at least three of
> > them
> >
> >> I know, and now Sevilla) are still mediated by another paradigm about
> >
> >> intellectual processing and education. A paradigm that Vygotsky
> started
>
> > >> to question 100 years ago. It takes much more to have this
> >
> understanding
> > >> of ourselves trickle down to those who plan and build
> schools and
> > >> universities.
> > >>
> > >> Participants came from many
> parts of the world. But not from
> > everywhere.
> > >> I was happy to see
> people from Africa -- some of them from Rwanda!
> > There
> > >> were not many
> Africans in the previous ISCRAT conferences.
> Participants
> > >> came from
> all continents. There were many people known to us on the
> > XMCA
> > >>
> discussion list in the conference: N. Ares, D. Bakhurst, S. Chaiklin,
> > M.
>
> > >> Cole, M. de Haan, J. Derry, Y. Engeström, S. Gaskin, A. Goncu, P.
> > >>
> Hakkarainen, L. Holzman, V. John-Stainer, E. Lampert-Shepel, C. Lee,
> E.
> >
> >> Matusov, D. Robbins, W-M. Roth, A. Stetsenko, A. Surmava, J.
> Valsiner,
>
> > >> B. van Oers, N. Veresov, G. Wells, J. Wertsch..., There were many
>
> more
> > >> we have to learn about.
> > >>
> > >> The conference program
> listed two main themes with lots of sub
> themes:
> > >> THEME A.- Theoretical
> and Methodological Issues
> > >> THEME B.- Acting in changing worlds
> > >>
> Each workshop was classified within one of the two themes and within
> > one
>
> > >> of its subtopics. What was hard on the conference organizers and on
>
> the
> > >> conference attendees was to separate workshops that tackled
> similar
> > >> problems in time: there were many workshops I wanted to go to,
> but
> they
> > >> were held at the same time. I always had to choose between,
> at least
> > two
> > >> competing workshops and more often between three or
> four. That was
> very
> > >> hard to juggle. I ended up running from one to
> another, missing
> chunks
> > >> from each workshop that I wanted to hear, or
> just worrying that I was
> > >> missing something else.
> > >>
> > >> Before
> the conference, I made my own selection of workshops which
> have
> > >>
> something to do with play and imagination. That was my personal
> program
> >
> >> guide, I am attaching here. However, I ended up changing it to
> > >>
> accommodate other talks which were also important to me. [Other
> > >>
> participants in Sevilla: Please send your own selection of the
> > >>
> workshops!"]. In my next postings, I will discuss some of the
> > >>
> presentations I attended. I invite you who went to Sevilla to discuss
> > at
>
> > >> least one of the presentations: one paper, one concept you heard
> > >>
> discussed, one thought you found important in Sevilla. Each one of us
> > >>
> has a special "pet" interest, and sometimes, special ways to
> understand
> >
> >> or to "objectify" this interest through different selection of topics
> >
> >> and different people. Maybe you want to connect the questions we
> asked
>
> > >> before the Conference with your experience in the conference? Or
>
> maybe
> > >> you would want to mention just something unexpected, something
> that
> > made
> > >> you think?
> > >>
> > >> Until later.
> > >>
> > >> Ana
>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >>
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >> Ana Marjanovic-Shane
> > >>
> > >> 151 W. Tulpehocken St.
> > >>
> > >>
> Philadelphia, PA 19144
> > >>
> > >> Home office: (215) 843-2909
> > >>
> > >>
> Mobile: (267) 334-2905
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> _______________________________________________
> > >> xmca mailing list
> >
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
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> >
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