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Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience

To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
From: Robert Lake <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 16:21:17 -0500
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Hi Larry and everyone,
The reference to the "tragic soul" in this Deweyan
context is interesting when I think of what the educational
philosopher Maxine Greene had to say in this regard.
In a filmed interview she acknowledged a great debt that
she owed Dewey but said that where she departed from
his thinking is that "he had no sense of the tragic" (Greene, 2001).

Hancock, M. (2001).*  Exclusions and awakenings: **The life of Maxine Greene
*.(DVD) New York. Hancock Productions.


On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mike, it is this second tradition which Andy's question is addressing. The
> notion of the *tragic soul* and catharis as a particular process of
> *reworking* and *recollecting* or *return*. A circling back over previously
> experienced critical disturbances in the organism-environment relationship.
> Andy is asking if THIS process is explored in either Dewey or Vygotsky, or
> is it an extension of their understanding of aesthetic [intense]
> experiencing ?
>
> Larry
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 10:08 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >From all of the quotations from Russian, there appear to be two
> > divisible "orientations" to the word. One is something like "the unity of
> > the organism and the environment" that is apparently akin to Dilthey'
> > (1833–1911) belief that "human experience (erlebnis, usually >>
> translated
> > 'lived experience') ---( From Martin's quotation of Dilthey.)
> >
> > The second tradition seems to single out intense experiences associated
> > with critical disturbances in the oranism-environment relationship in
> > either the negative (emphasized by the Doestoevsky in Vasiliuk) or
> positive
> > (as emphasized by Bella)
> > direction.
> >
> > Is that a reasonable conclusion?
> > mike
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 2:28 AM, Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> > > The only time that I know of that LSV talks about catharsis is in The
> > > Psychology of Art, where he does not talk about perezhivanie, at least
> in
> > > the 1971 MIT translation; but according to Van der Veer, that
> translation
> > > only includes about half of what's available in Russian.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> > On
> > > Behalf Of Andy Blunden
> > > Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 6:09 PM
> > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
> > >
> > > Before moving on to Wundt, and Aristotle I wonder if any xmca
> > > correspondents could help me with this question?
> > >
> > > In my collection of quotes at
> > > http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm I was able to
> > > line up Dewey's concept of "an experience" with Vygotsky's concept of
> > > "perezhivanie" on 5 different "dimensions". But there is one aspect of
> > > perezehivanie which I can line up with Freud and Stanislavsky and
> several
> > > contemporary commentators such as Ferholt, Kravtsov, Vasilyuk, ...,
> but I
> > > can't find it in Dewey and I don't know where to find it in Vygotsky,
> and
> > > that is:
> > >
> > > * in order to function in development, perezhivanie must be "recalled"
> > > and "worked over" in "catharsis" which is related to what Mike Cole
> calls
> > > "prolepsis" or "temporality". Where do I find a clear expression for
> this
> > > idea in Vygotsky and is it to be found in Dewey?
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > > Larry Purss wrote:
> > > > Mike, Andy, Martin
> > > >
> > > > Mike has summarized the thread to this point in the conversation with
> > > > the
> > > > comment:
> > > >
> > > >  I was also delighted to see the connection to Dilthey. To me he
> > > > stands for the "understanding" side of Wundt's duality between
> > > > volkpsychology and experimental psychology. Two sides of the crisis.
> > > > Add it to your list of quotations about perezhivanie, Andy, and lets
> > > > link it somehow to xmca.
> > > >
> > > > Mike, as we link up Dilthey, Dewey, and Vygotsky we seem to be
> linking
> > > > up *lived experience* which emphasizes the SUBJECTIVE emotional,
> > > > visceral significance of lived experience.
> > > >
> > > > Another central concept is the understanding of *recollection* when
> > > > the impact of the situation on the person summons up the entire lived
> > > > experience of development.
> > > >
> > > > Does Aristotle's notion of *phronesis* as the relationship BETWEEN
> > > > *character* and *application* also offer another source for linking
> to
> > > > perezhivanie?? My reason for asking is that Gadamer has *recollected*
> > > > lived experience as *flourishing* by returning to Aristotle.
> Aristotle
> > > > also was exploring notions of the *moral good* and I want to link
> this
> > > > to page 3 of Andy's notes on perezhivanie. On page 3 Vygotsky uses
> the
> > > > metaphor of
> > > > *prism* and *refraction* on the environments role and influence on
> the
> > > > course of development. Vygotsky is suggesting the discipline of
> > > > pedology as a genre OUGHT to always be capable of finding the
> > > > particular *prism* THROUGH WHICH the influence of the environment of
> > > > the environment on the child is REFRACTED. In Vygotsky's own words
> > > pedology:
> > > >
> > > > "OUGHT to be able to find the relationship which exists between the
> > > > child and its environment, the child's emotional experience
> > > > [perezhivanie], in other words how a child BECOMES AWARE of,
> > > > INTERPRETS, [and] EMOTIONALLY RELATES to a certain event. This is
> such
> > > > a prism which DETERMINES the role and influence of the environment on
> > > > the development of, say, the child's CHARACTER, his psychological
> > > development, etc.
> > > >
> > > > Andy the way you chose to present the multiple shades of meaning of
> > > > perezhivanie [TRANSlated as "lived experience"] through gathering
> > > > together multiple authors each presenting their particular
> > > > understanding of "lived experience" I found helpful in offering a
> > > > deepening clarity of perezhivanie. In conjunction with Dewey's
> > > > understanding of aesthetic experience as a deepening
> *intensification*
> > > > of lived experience and Dilthey's exploration of lived experience as
> > > > *undergoing*, possible new linkings or avenues of conversation open
> up.
> > > >
> > > > Fascinating thread which brings to center stage questions of
> > > > subjectivity, intra-subjectivity, inter-subjectivity,
> > > > trans-subjectivity and how these various understandings of
> > > > subjectivity [and character development] link to perezhivanie. I
> > > > appreciate how XMCA is contributing to my personal development.
> > > >
> > > > Larry
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 6:25 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> I expect Ivo just sat that dangling issue there on purpose and I was
> > > >> also delighted to see the connection to Dilthey.  To me he stands
> for
> > > >> the "understanding" side of Wundt's duality between volkpsychology
> > > >> and experimental psychology. Two sides of the crisis.
> > > >>
> > > >> Add it to your list of quotations about perezhivanie, Andy, and lets
> > > >> link it somehow to xmca.
> > > >>
> > > >> mike
> > > >>
> > > >> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 6:05 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> Marvellous quote, Martin. None of these issues were discovered
> > > >>> yesterday, it seems.
> > > >>> I had forgotten that a couple of years ago I made up a collection
> of
> > > >>> quotes from various writers on "Perezhivanie" here:
> > > >>> http://www.ethicalpolitics.**org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm<
> > > >>>
> > > >> http://www.ethicalpolitics.org/seminars/perezhivanie.htm>
> > > >>
> > > >>> Andy
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Martin Packer wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> On Feb 19, 2013, at 7:13 PM, Ivo Banaco <ibanaco@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Sorry, I've just realized I've mistaken Dewey with Dilthey, I
> > > >>>>>> wonder why...
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>> Perhaps because all of this was in Dilthey too.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Dilthey (1833-1911) considered human experience (erlebnis, usually
> > > >>>> translated 'lived experience') to be concrete and historical,
> > > >>>> always
> > > >>>>
> > > >> shaped
> > > >>
> > > >>>> by the context of the past and by the horizon of the future, and
> he
> > > >>>>
> > > >> argued
> > > >>
> > > >>>> that lived experience is the basis for all understanding. Lived
> > > >>>>
> > > >> experience
> > > >>
> > > >>>> is a direct, immediate, pre-reflective contact with life, an act
> of
> > > >>>> perceiving in which the person is unified with the object of their
> > > >>>> understanding. It is made up not of static cognitive categories
> but
> > > >>>> of meaningful unities which are prior to the separation between
> > > >>>> emotion, willing,  with knowing. Lived experience contains within
> > > >>>> it the
> > > >>>>
> > > >> temporality
> > > >>
> > > >>>> of living, and of life itself.
> > > >>>> "That which in the stream of time forms a unity in the present
> > > >>>> because
> > > >>>>
> > > >> it
> > > >>
> > > >>>> has a unitary meaning is the smallest entity which we can
> designate
> > > >>>> as
> > > >>>>
> > > >> an
> > > >>
> > > >>>> experience" (Dilthey, Collected Works 7, 194)
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> "The experience does not stand like an object over against its
> > > >>>> experiencer, but rather its very existence for me is
> > > >>>> undifferentiated
> > > >>>>
> > > >> from
> > > >>
> > > >>>> the whatness which is present for me in it" (Collected Works 7,
> > > >>>> 139)
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Martin
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> ______________________________**____________
> > > >>>> _____
> > > >>>> xmca mailing list
> > > >>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> > > >>>>
> > > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> > > >>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>> --
> > > >>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> > > >>> ------------
> > > >>> *Andy Blunden*
> > > >>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> > > >>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> > > >>> http://ucsd.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<
> > > >>>
> > > >> http://ucsd.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
> > > >>
> > > >>> ______________________________**____________
> > > >>> _____
> > > >>> xmca mailing list
> > > >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<
> > > >>>
> > > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> > > >>
> > > >> __________________________________________
> > > >> _____
> > > >> xmca mailing list
> > > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > > __________________________________________
> > > > _____
> > > > xmca mailing list
> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > *Andy Blunden*
> > > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> > > Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> > > http://ucsd.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
> > >
> > > __________________________________________
> > > _____
> > > xmca mailing list
> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________
> > > _____
> > > xmca mailing list
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> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
> > __________________________________________
> > _____
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> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
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>



-- 
*Robert Lake  Ed.D.
*Associate Professor
Social Foundations of Education
Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
Georgia Southern University
P. O. Box 8144
Phone: (912) 478-0355
Fax: (912) 478-5382
Statesboro, GA  30460

 *Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is its
midwife.*
*-*John Dewey.
__________________________________________
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References:
- [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
  - From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
- Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
  - From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
- RE: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
  - From: "Glassman, Michael" <glassman.13@osu.edu>
- Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
  - From: Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
- Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
  - From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
- Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
  - From: Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
- Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
  - From: Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
- Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
  - From: Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
- Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
  - From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
- RES: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
  - From: "Joao Martins" <jbmartin@sercomtel.com.br>
- Re: RES: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
  - From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
- Re: RES: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
  - From: Ivo Banaco <ibanaco@gmail.com>
- Re: RES: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
  - From: Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu>
- Re: RES: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
  - From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
- Re: RES: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
  - From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
- Re: RES: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
  - From: Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
- Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
  - From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
- RE: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
  - From: Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>
- Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
  - From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
- Re: [xmca] Perezhivanie and Dewey's concept of experience
  - From: Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>

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