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Re: [xmca] Levy-Bruhl, "primitivism", progress and etc.
- To: lchcmike@gmail.com, "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
- Subject: Re: [xmca] Levy-Bruhl, "primitivism", progress and etc.
- From: Anthony Barra <tub80742@temple.edu>
- Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 19:32:52 -0500
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Quite helpful! Thank you, Tammy.
Anthony
On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 7:28 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tammy Powell created this summary of the discussion up to recently. It is
> still moving in a couple of threads, at least. Perhaps having it brought
> together like this would be helpful to others? Or is it a distraction in
> the flow?
> mike
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Tamara Powell <tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Levy-Bruhl, concrete psychology and "primitivism"
> To: lchcmike@gmail.com, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
>
>
> Okay, here's the updated versions. I added Larry Purss' comment from a day
> ago.
>
> Tammy :)
>
> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 9:10 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > OK, thenh. Tammy Make small changes Andy suggested and send out to me,
> As
> > life allows, I will read, listen, watch, and deal with it.
> > mike
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 8:44 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> >
> >> I hesitate to enter this kitchen.
> >> Couple of comments. The vimeo link appears a second time. Not required.
> >> *words inside asterisks* can be bold.
> >>
> >> I guess when it's complete, put it on the web site and send a message to
> >> the list about it,
> >> Andy
> >>
> >> mike cole wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thanks a lot, Tammy. I am going to cc Andy on this.
> >>>
> >>> Andy, the idea is to pull together a bunch of different, but
> >>> interrelated, threads so that the overall topic is more visible.
> >>> I gotta get off line, but this needs purusing. It should be fed
> >>> back into xmca.
> >>> mike
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Tamara Powell <
> >>> tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**gmail.com<
> tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hey Mike,
> >>>
> >>> Here's a .pdf and .docx with all three conversations and with
> >>> notes about where conversations split/go to.
> >>>
> >>> I hope this is helpful!
> >>>
> >>> Tammy
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 9:42 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com
> >>> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Its not a hurry up thing, but a thing to be done. An example
> >>> of how a single discussion that is really worthwhile is
> >>> degraded by different headers etc, and confusions. ..... but
> >>> with some effort, the core topic can be discerned and maybe
> >>> some knowledge crystalized.
> >>> mike
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 9:28 PM, Tamara Powell
> >>> <tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com
> >>> <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**gmail.com <
> tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> No problem, should be fine. I probably won't be able to
> >>> finish until tomorrow afternoon, but I'll try to figure
> >>> out a good way to condense things.
> >>>
> >>> Tammy :)
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 9:14 PM, mike cole
> >>> <lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> If you can. I think they are all part of the same
> >>> topic. Am i nuts?
> >>> m,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 9:05 PM, Tamara Powell
> >>> <tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com
> >>> <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**gmail.com<
> tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The two other threads I see that seem connected
> >>> are:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [xmca] Bateson's distinction between digital and
> >>> analog
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [xmca] Levy-Bruhl, concrete psychology and
> >>> "primitivism" (was: Re: [xmca] Bateson's
> >>> distinction between digital and analog)
> >>>
> >>> Do you want me to put all three threads together?
> >>>
> >>> Tammy
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 4:40 PM, mike cole
> >>> <lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Beautiful, but there is stuff by kellog on
> >>> this I am pretty
> >>> sure. Check the archive for about past two
> weeks.
> >>> m
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 3:54 PM, Tamara Powell
> >>> <tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com
> >>> <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**gmail.com<
> tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi Mike,
> >>>
> >>> How's this? Do you want me or you to send
> >>> it?
> >>>
> >>> Tammy
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 12:03 PM, mike
> >>> cole <lchcmike@gmail.com
> >>> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Tammy-- Could you find a way to make a
> >>> single document that contains this
> >>> discussion and the link to the vimeo
> >>> to send out to xmca. I am really
> >>> interested in getting the discussion
> >>> straight, but l am way too
> >>> pressed to go back and make a coherent
> >>> set. Could you?
> >>> mike
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 10:28 AM,
> >>> Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com
> >>> <mailto:stevegabosch@me.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Martin, to supplement your
> >>> analysis below, could you attach,
> >>> or copy to text the slide you used
> >>> at ISCAR quoting the babalawo
> >>> teaching his client about the
> >>> astral? It can be read but not
> >>> all at once in the Vimeo - which I
> >>> highly recommend, btw (only 20
> >>> minutes long) - thank you Andy for
> >>> putting that up and pointing it out.
> >>>
> >>> The astral is a very interesting
> >>> concept. I cannot think of an
> >>> equivalent word in English, or
> >>> even a quick definition for the
> >>> term - yet your presentation gives
> >>> me just enough to get an intuitive
> >>> sense of it. The meaning is
> >>> familiar - but I don't have clear
> >>> words for it. What is your take
> >>> on what the concept of the astral
> >>> is to a babalawo and others who
> >>> use the term?
> >>>
> >>> And what an imposing translation
> >>> job this kind of research must
> >>> require - across modes of
> >>> production, continents, eras,
> >>> classes - and of course,
> >>> languages. No wonder so few
> >>> researchers try to do something
> >>> like this! It must be extremely
> >>> difficult to translate concepts
> >>> across such expanses in time,
> >>> space, class and mind. It grossly
> >>> oversimplifies the task to just
> >>> describe it as the challenge of
> >>> translating a localized, religious
> >>> and mostly oral use of Spanish to
> >>> written and formal CHAT-ese
> >>> English - but that begins to give
> >>> a flavor of how complex it must
> >>> be. I salute you, Martin, and all
> >>> those in CHAT, with Mike as the
> >>> great-granddad, who have been
> >>> doing this remarkable kind of
> >>> work. It is one of the
> >>> cutting-edge aspects of CHAT.
> >>>
> >>> What intrigues me about the astral
> >>> is how psychologically *concrete*
> >>> this concept seems to be in the
> >>> lives of the people interested in
> >>> the Oruba and Santaria religions.
> >>> Its concreteness strikes me in at
> >>> least two ways.
> >>>
> >>> One is the role of the concept of
> >>> the astral in making lifestyle
> >>> choices about loaning out personal
> >>> belongings such as clothing,
> >>> towels, soap. You point to the
> >>> solidity of the babalawo's
> >>> argument. My intuition is telling
> >>> me he can do this because of the
> >>> concreteness of the concept of the
> >>> astral he is relying on and
> >>> explaining.
> >>>
> >>> Another aspect of concreteness I
> >>> think I detect is the role of the
> >>> concept of the astral as part of
> >>> what is apparently an elaborate
> >>> system of psychological and social
> >>> concepts that can be used to
> >>> describe, explain and predict
> >>> human behavior. I think of that
> >>> endeavor as 'concrete' because I
> >>> can't think of anything people
> >>> like to talk about more! And the
> >>> concept of the astral seems to
> >>> clearly enable that kind of
> >>> conversation. (And it is much
> >>> catchier than "higher mental
> >>> functions," don't you think?)
> >>>
> >>> The babalawo describes the astral
> >>> as luck, as stability, as being
> >>> potentially negative, of having
> >>> your astral or your luck stolen,
> >>> as enveloping or being enveloped,
> >>> etc. Many complex possibilities
> >>> and configurations are indicated
> >>> in a single stream of
> >>> explanations. Like concepts such
> >>> as karma, soul, aura, etc. there
> >>> seems to be some long-developed
> >>> knowledge about the nature of
> >>> human relations contained in the
> >>> concept of the astral. But I
> >>> can't quite put this implicit
> >>> knowledge into explicit words.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> - Steve
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Feb 21, 2012, at 1:57 PM,
> >>> Martin Packer wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I was hoping someone might
> >>> analyze this passage for me,
> >>> but I guess I'll have to do it
> >>> myself!
> >>>
> >>> Much of the babalawo's talk
> >>> takes the form of advice,
> >>> recommendations, obligations
> >>> for the future conduct of the
> >>> client. What she has to do, or
> >>> ought to do, includes “go to
> >>> the church and make mass for
> >>> you deceased relatives,” “look
> >>> after your mother, by phone,”
> >>> “arrange a sacrifice,” “pray,”
> >>> “wear your hair loose,” and so
> >>> on. In the excerpt above, the
> >>> advice is to stop lending her
> >>> clothes.
> >>>
> >>> It is worth considering in
> >>> detail the way this advice is
> >>> offered. In this excerpt it is
> >>> grounded in what “Orula says”
> >>> (93) but immediately a warrant
> >>> is added: “because that is
> >>> stealing your luck” (we have
> >>> translated suerte as ‘luck,’
> >>> but it could equally be
> >>> ‘fate’). This is then
> >>> clarified, and then the
> >>> babalawo recommends to the
> >>> client that she make her own
> >>> observation; if she does so,
> >>> she will see that her sister,
> >>> who on occasion uses her
> >>> clothes, is happy, content,
> >>> while she, the client, is not
> >>> (94-96). This is presented as
> >>> an empirical demonstration of
> >>> the Orula’s point: due to the
> >>> fact that her sister has worn
> >>> her clothes, the client’s
> >>> astral has been stolen. It
> >>> also counters a possible
> >>> rebuttal: the “If not…” can be
> >>> glossed as “If you don’t
> >>> believe me, consider this…”
> >>> The consequence of this is
> >>> that the client is unhappy,
> >>> while her sister is happy. The
> >>> babalawo then offers
> >>> additional clarification,
> >>> “because…” one can wash ones
> >>> clothes a hundred times, the
> >>> astral of the person who wore
> >>> them cannot be removed
> >>> (96-98). This displays a
> >>> counter to a possible
> >>> qualification that the loss of
> >>> one’s astral might be
> >>> prevented by the simple
> >>> expedient of washing the
> >>> clothes that have been
> >>> borrowed. Then he adds what
> >>> could be taken as an appeal to
> >>> his authority, or a
> >>> confirmation that he himself
> >>> lives by the advice he is
> >>> offering to her: “We, the
> >>> religious, don’t loan our
> >>> clothing…” (98). This
> >>> functions as backing to the
> >>> validity of the central
> >>> claims. He elaborates further;
> >>> not only clothing should not
> >>> be shared, but also shoes,
> >>> towels, soap. Nor do they do
> >>> the reciprocal: they don’t
> >>> “wear the clothes of another
> >>> person” (101), this countering
> >>> the possible objection that if
> >>> the effect works one way, it
> >>> ought to work in the opposite
> >>> direction, but this has not
> >>> been mentioned.
> >>>
> >>> The passage displays a complex
> >>> and subtle argumentative
> >>> organization. It starts with
> >>> the central claim, then a
> >>> warrant (“because…”), then a
> >>> more explicit statement of the
> >>> mechanism that is claimed to
> >>> be operating (“wear someone’s
> >>> clothes… steals their luck”),
> >>> then it counters a possible
> >>> rebuttal, then counters a
> >>> possible qualification. Then a
> >>> backing is provided, and a
> >>> further warrant. Finally,
> >>> another possible qualification
> >>> is countered.
> >>>
> >>> Recall Toulmin's model of
> >>> argument:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> <Toulmin.pdf>
> >>> On Feb 21, 2012, at 9:54 AM,
> >>> Martin Packer wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Steve mentioned the
> >>> presentation I gave at
> >>> ISCAR, on a study
> >>> conducted by a student
> >>> here in Colombia (Silvia
> >>> Tibaduisa) of the
> >>> babalawo. I discussed an
> >>> excerpt from a divination
> >>> session; here it is:
> >>>
> >>> Let me ask a little
> >>> question. You live in a
> >>> aparte-studio... in an
> >>> apartment, with other
> >>> people. What person wears
> >>> your clothing?
> >>>
> >>> Yes. Sometimes my cousin
> >>> or my sister uses them
> >>>
> >>> Orula says not to lend
> >>> your clothes any more,
> >>> because that is stealing
> >>> your luck. That the person
> >>> who wears someone’s
> >>> clothes steals their
> >>> astral, steals their luck.
> >>> If not, make an
> >>> observation yourself, of
> >>> how your cousin lives and
> >>> how you live. She's all
> >>> happy, all content, and
> >>> you’re not. That is how
> >>> someone’s luck, stability,
> >>> leaves them. Because
> >>> [when] one lends their
> >>> astral, although one
> >>> washes it 100 times, it
> >>> takes holds of the astral
> >>> of the other person as
> >>> well, and if it’s a
> >>> negative astral, it also
> >>> includes one. We, the
> >>> religious, don’t loan our
> >>> clothing, we don’t bathe
> >>> with the same towel or the
> >>> same soap. We don’t lend
> >>> underwear, socks, shoes,
> >>> anything. Because these
> >>> are one's personal things
> >>> and that takes hold of
> >>> your astral. Nor wear the
> >>> clothes of another person.
> >>>
> >>> The English reads a little
> >>> oddly because I prefer
> >>> literalish translations.
> >>> There are a number of
> >>> interesting
> >>> characteristics to this
> >>> exchange, but I want to
> >>> focus on the reasoning
> >>> involved. I would suggest
> >>> that it is perfectly
> >>> recognizable to us.
> >>> Substitute a more familiar
> >>> premise: not "when someone
> >>> wears your clothes they
> >>> steal your astral" but
> >>> "when someone uses your
> >>> toothbrush they give you
> >>> bacteria" and the rest
> >>> follows logically, doesn't
> >>> it?
> >>>
> >>> Martin
> >>>
> >>>
> ______________________________
> >>> ____________
> >>> _____
> >>> xmca mailing list
> >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> >>>
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/*
> >>> *listinfo/xmca <http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ______________________________**
> >>> ____________
> >>> _____
> >>> xmca mailing list
> >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**
> >>> listinfo/xmca <http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ______________________________**
> >>> ____________
> >>> _____
> >>> xmca mailing list
> >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**
> >>> listinfo/xmca <http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -- Tamara Powell
> >>> tjpowell@ucsd.edu
> >>> <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**gmail.com<
> tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -- Tamara Powell
> >>> tjpowell@ucsd.edu <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**
> >>> gmail.com <tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -- Tamara Powell
> >>> tjpowell@ucsd.edu <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**gmail.com<
> tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -- Tamara Powell
> >>> tjpowell@ucsd.edu <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**gmail.com<
> tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> --
> >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> >> ------------
> >> *Andy Blunden*
> >> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<
> http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1>
> >> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> >> Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<
> http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
> --
> Tamara Powell
> tjpowell@ucsd.edu <tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>
>
> __________________________________________
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