Tammy Powell created this summary of the discussion up to recently. It is still moving in a couple of threads, at least. Perhaps having it brought together like this would be helpful to others? Or is it a distraction in the flow? mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Tamara Powell <tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com> Date: Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:25 PM Subject: Re: [xmca] Levy-Bruhl, concrete psychology and "primitivism" To: lchcmike@gmail.com, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> Okay, here's the updated versions. I added Larry Purss' comment from a day ago. Tammy :) On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 9:10 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: > OK, thenh. Tammy Make small changes Andy suggested and send out to me, As > life allows, I will read, listen, watch, and deal with it. > mike > > > On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 8:44 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote: > >> I hesitate to enter this kitchen. >> Couple of comments. The vimeo link appears a second time. Not required. >> *words inside asterisks* can be bold. >> >> I guess when it's complete, put it on the web site and send a message to >> the list about it, >> Andy >> >> mike cole wrote: >> >>> Thanks a lot, Tammy. I am going to cc Andy on this. >>> >>> Andy, the idea is to pull together a bunch of different, but >>> interrelated, threads so that the overall topic is more visible. >>> I gotta get off line, but this needs purusing. It should be fed >>> back into xmca. >>> mike >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Tamara Powell < >>> tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**gmail.com<tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hey Mike, >>> >>> Here's a .pdf and .docx with all three conversations and with >>> notes about where conversations split/go to. >>> >>> I hope this is helpful! >>> >>> Tammy >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 9:42 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com >>> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Its not a hurry up thing, but a thing to be done. An example >>> of how a single discussion that is really worthwhile is >>> degraded by different headers etc, and confusions. ..... but >>> with some effort, the core topic can be discerned and maybe >>> some knowledge crystalized. >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 9:28 PM, Tamara Powell >>> <tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com >>> <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**gmail.com <tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> No problem, should be fine. I probably won't be able to >>> finish until tomorrow afternoon, but I'll try to figure >>> out a good way to condense things. >>> >>> Tammy :) >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 9:14 PM, mike cole >>> <lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> If you can. I think they are all part of the same >>> topic. Am i nuts? >>> m, >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 9:05 PM, Tamara Powell >>> <tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com >>> <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**gmail.com<tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> The two other threads I see that seem connected >>> are: >>> >>> >>> [xmca] Bateson's distinction between digital and >>> analog >>> >>> >>> [xmca] Levy-Bruhl, concrete psychology and >>> "primitivism" (was: Re: [xmca] Bateson's >>> distinction between digital and analog) >>> >>> Do you want me to put all three threads together? >>> >>> Tammy >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 4:40 PM, mike cole >>> <lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Beautiful, but there is stuff by kellog on >>> this I am pretty >>> sure. Check the archive for about past two weeks. >>> m >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 3:54 PM, Tamara Powell >>> <tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com >>> <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**gmail.com<tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Mike, >>> >>> How's this? Do you want me or you to send >>> it? >>> >>> Tammy >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 12:03 PM, mike >>> cole <lchcmike@gmail.com >>> <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Tammy-- Could you find a way to make a >>> single document that contains this >>> discussion and the link to the vimeo >>> to send out to xmca. I am really >>> interested in getting the discussion >>> straight, but l am way too >>> pressed to go back and make a coherent >>> set. Could you? >>> mike >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 10:28 AM, >>> Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com >>> <mailto:stevegabosch@me.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Martin, to supplement your >>> analysis below, could you attach, >>> or copy to text the slide you used >>> at ISCAR quoting the babalawo >>> teaching his client about the >>> astral? It can be read but not >>> all at once in the Vimeo - which I >>> highly recommend, btw (only 20 >>> minutes long) - thank you Andy for >>> putting that up and pointing it out. >>> >>> The astral is a very interesting >>> concept. I cannot think of an >>> equivalent word in English, or >>> even a quick definition for the >>> term - yet your presentation gives >>> me just enough to get an intuitive >>> sense of it. The meaning is >>> familiar - but I don't have clear >>> words for it. What is your take >>> on what the concept of the astral >>> is to a babalawo and others who >>> use the term? >>> >>> And what an imposing translation >>> job this kind of research must >>> require - across modes of >>> production, continents, eras, >>> classes - and of course, >>> languages. No wonder so few >>> researchers try to do something >>> like this! It must be extremely >>> difficult to translate concepts >>> across such expanses in time, >>> space, class and mind. It grossly >>> oversimplifies the task to just >>> describe it as the challenge of >>> translating a localized, religious >>> and mostly oral use of Spanish to >>> written and formal CHAT-ese >>> English - but that begins to give >>> a flavor of how complex it must >>> be. I salute you, Martin, and all >>> those in CHAT, with Mike as the >>> great-granddad, who have been >>> doing this remarkable kind of >>> work. It is one of the >>> cutting-edge aspects of CHAT. >>> >>> What intrigues me about the astral >>> is how psychologically *concrete* >>> this concept seems to be in the >>> lives of the people interested in >>> the Oruba and Santaria religions. >>> Its concreteness strikes me in at >>> least two ways. >>> >>> One is the role of the concept of >>> the astral in making lifestyle >>> choices about loaning out personal >>> belongings such as clothing, >>> towels, soap. You point to the >>> solidity of the babalawo's >>> argument. My intuition is telling >>> me he can do this because of the >>> concreteness of the concept of the >>> astral he is relying on and >>> explaining. >>> >>> Another aspect of concreteness I >>> think I detect is the role of the >>> concept of the astral as part of >>> what is apparently an elaborate >>> system of psychological and social >>> concepts that can be used to >>> describe, explain and predict >>> human behavior. I think of that >>> endeavor as 'concrete' because I >>> can't think of anything people >>> like to talk about more! And the >>> concept of the astral seems to >>> clearly enable that kind of >>> conversation. (And it is much >>> catchier than "higher mental >>> functions," don't you think?) >>> >>> The babalawo describes the astral >>> as luck, as stability, as being >>> potentially negative, of having >>> your astral or your luck stolen, >>> as enveloping or being enveloped, >>> etc. Many complex possibilities >>> and configurations are indicated >>> in a single stream of >>> explanations. Like concepts such >>> as karma, soul, aura, etc. there >>> seems to be some long-developed >>> knowledge about the nature of >>> human relations contained in the >>> concept of the astral. But I >>> can't quite put this implicit >>> knowledge into explicit words. >>> >>> >>> - Steve >>> >>> >>> On Feb 21, 2012, at 1:57 PM, >>> Martin Packer wrote: >>> >>> I was hoping someone might >>> analyze this passage for me, >>> but I guess I'll have to do it >>> myself! >>> >>> Much of the babalawo's talk >>> takes the form of advice, >>> recommendations, obligations >>> for the future conduct of the >>> client. What she has to do, or >>> ought to do, includes “go to >>> the church and make mass for >>> you deceased relatives,” “look >>> after your mother, by phone,” >>> “arrange a sacrifice,” “pray,” >>> “wear your hair loose,” and so >>> on. In the excerpt above, the >>> advice is to stop lending her >>> clothes. >>> >>> It is worth considering in >>> detail the way this advice is >>> offered. In this excerpt it is >>> grounded in what “Orula says” >>> (93) but immediately a warrant >>> is added: “because that is >>> stealing your luck” (we have >>> translated suerte as ‘luck,’ >>> but it could equally be >>> ‘fate’). This is then >>> clarified, and then the >>> babalawo recommends to the >>> client that she make her own >>> observation; if she does so, >>> she will see that her sister, >>> who on occasion uses her >>> clothes, is happy, content, >>> while she, the client, is not >>> (94-96). This is presented as >>> an empirical demonstration of >>> the Orula’s point: due to the >>> fact that her sister has worn >>> her clothes, the client’s >>> astral has been stolen. It >>> also counters a possible >>> rebuttal: the “If not…” can be >>> glossed as “If you don’t >>> believe me, consider this…” >>> The consequence of this is >>> that the client is unhappy, >>> while her sister is happy. The >>> babalawo then offers >>> additional clarification, >>> “because…” one can wash ones >>> clothes a hundred times, the >>> astral of the person who wore >>> them cannot be removed >>> (96-98). This displays a >>> counter to a possible >>> qualification that the loss of >>> one’s astral might be >>> prevented by the simple >>> expedient of washing the >>> clothes that have been >>> borrowed. Then he adds what >>> could be taken as an appeal to >>> his authority, or a >>> confirmation that he himself >>> lives by the advice he is >>> offering to her: “We, the >>> religious, don’t loan our >>> clothing…” (98). This >>> functions as backing to the >>> validity of the central >>> claims. He elaborates further; >>> not only clothing should not >>> be shared, but also shoes, >>> towels, soap. Nor do they do >>> the reciprocal: they don’t >>> “wear the clothes of another >>> person” (101), this countering >>> the possible objection that if >>> the effect works one way, it >>> ought to work in the opposite >>> direction, but this has not >>> been mentioned. >>> >>> The passage displays a complex >>> and subtle argumentative >>> organization. It starts with >>> the central claim, then a >>> warrant (“because…”), then a >>> more explicit statement of the >>> mechanism that is claimed to >>> be operating (“wear someone’s >>> clothes… steals their luck”), >>> then it counters a possible >>> rebuttal, then counters a >>> possible qualification. Then a >>> backing is provided, and a >>> further warrant. Finally, >>> another possible qualification >>> is countered. >>> >>> Recall Toulmin's model of >>> argument: >>> >>> >>> <Toulmin.pdf> >>> On Feb 21, 2012, at 9:54 AM, >>> Martin Packer wrote: >>> >>> Steve mentioned the >>> presentation I gave at >>> ISCAR, on a study >>> conducted by a student >>> here in Colombia (Silvia >>> Tibaduisa) of the >>> babalawo. I discussed an >>> excerpt from a divination >>> session; here it is: >>> >>> Let me ask a little >>> question. You live in a >>> aparte-studio... in an >>> apartment, with other >>> people. What person wears >>> your clothing? >>> >>> Yes. Sometimes my cousin >>> or my sister uses them >>> >>> Orula says not to lend >>> your clothes any more, >>> because that is stealing >>> your luck. That the person >>> who wears someone’s >>> clothes steals their >>> astral, steals their luck. >>> If not, make an >>> observation yourself, of >>> how your cousin lives and >>> how you live. She's all >>> happy, all content, and >>> you’re not. That is how >>> someone’s luck, stability, >>> leaves them. Because >>> [when] one lends their >>> astral, although one >>> washes it 100 times, it >>> takes holds of the astral >>> of the other person as >>> well, and if it’s a >>> negative astral, it also >>> includes one. We, the >>> religious, don’t loan our >>> clothing, we don’t bathe >>> with the same towel or the >>> same soap. We don’t lend >>> underwear, socks, shoes, >>> anything. Because these >>> are one's personal things >>> and that takes hold of >>> your astral. Nor wear the >>> clothes of another person. >>> >>> The English reads a little >>> oddly because I prefer >>> literalish translations. >>> There are a number of >>> interesting >>> characteristics to this >>> exchange, but I want to >>> focus on the reasoning >>> involved. I would suggest >>> that it is perfectly >>> recognizable to us. >>> Substitute a more familiar >>> premise: not "when someone >>> wears your clothes they >>> steal your astral" but >>> "when someone uses your >>> toothbrush they give you >>> bacteria" and the rest >>> follows logically, doesn't >>> it? >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> ______________________________ >>> ____________ >>> _____ >>> xmca mailing list >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/* >>> *listinfo/xmca <http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________** >>> ____________ >>> _____ >>> xmca mailing list >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/** >>> listinfo/xmca <http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________** >>> ____________ >>> _____ >>> xmca mailing list >>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >>> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> >>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/** >>> listinfo/xmca <http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- Tamara Powell >>> tjpowell@ucsd.edu >>> <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**gmail.com<tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- Tamara Powell >>> tjpowell@ucsd.edu <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@** >>> gmail.com <tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- Tamara Powell >>> tjpowell@ucsd.edu <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**gmail.com<tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- Tamara Powell >>> tjpowell@ucsd.edu <mailto:tamarajeanpowell@**gmail.com<tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >> ------------ >> *Andy Blunden* >> Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/**toc/hmca20/18/1<http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1> >> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.**aspx?partid=227&pid=34857<http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857> >> >> > -- Tamara Powell tjpowell@ucsd.edu <tamarajeanpowell@gmail.com>
Attachment:
XMCA_Bateson_Levy-Bruhl_Primativism2.docx
Description: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document
Attachment:
XMCA_Bateson_Levy-Bruhl_Primativism2.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
__________________________________________ _____ xmca mailing list xmca@weber.ucsd.edu http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca