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Re: [xmca] Interpreting Leontiev: functionalism and Anglo Finnish Insufficiences



I don't know Markell, but I read Williams as what I call billiard table recognition. As you correctly say, individuals in the modern state get recognition first of all through Right, and then on top of all that
through participation in a whole variety of mediating projects.
Mediation is the alpha and omega of Hegel and I don't see a single glimmer of understanding of this in the writers I mentioned. Why? They express the spirit of their age, in which individuals bang around like billiard balls on a level playing field. They want to do away with
religion, but all they have to replace it with is individualism.

There is a lot of be said for Mead and his rendering of the master-slave narrative, but I think he remained unclear, and his subjects seem to be able to generate the means of mediation from within themselves. OK up to
a point, but as Hegel says ...

Also, what is overlooked is that the subjects of Hegel's narratives are
not first of all individuals, but are social subjects, and only
derivatively from that, persons.



Andy

Greg Thompson wrote:
Yes, Andy, your quote from Hegel makes clear that Hegel is tracing out
subjective spirit as it emerges through recognition in phylogenetic
history. But this is not to say that the process of recognition is all
said and done once human social life has developed past this state.
What does follow from this historical transformation, imho, is that
recognition will take on a new quality with the emergence of civil
society and the State - recognition becomes mediated in a whole new
way; recognition becomes mediated through culture. This is not your
father's recognition. It is not about struggle and battle, but it is
about gaining rich individuality through the complex macrosocial array
of identities that are on offer in society (and which are realized
with respect to the complex metapragmatics of exhibiting and,
critically, being recognized as having had exhibited, the signs and
symbols of having had been such and such type of person in a given
moment). To put it in a slightly different idiom, identity is like a
right - it exists consequentially only through the recognition of
others (writ large, i.e. recognition via thirdness (Peirce) or, if you
prefer, a generalized other (Mead), in short, through recognition
through culture). And just as property creates possibilities for
agentive action, e.g. raising cattle or raising capital, so too do
various identities create possibilities for agentive action (something
that the con-man is well aware of, but which most of the rest of us
seem too stuck in our "own" skin to realize).

I also happen to think that this importance of culture to mediation
comes through in both Markell's and Williams' readings of Hegel,
although I think it is more clearly articulated in the former than in
the latter (though I do have some issues with both). And I will need
to go back through my notes and through your writings on Williams,
Andy, to see where I think that you've got Williams wrong (but I'm not
about to make a similar claim about your reading of Hegel - you're way
out of my league in that regard!).

But that will have to wait as there are more pressing matters right
now (presents to wrap and cookies to eat and notes to leave!).

And a very merry Christmas to you Andy.
And to all a good night.
-greg

p.s., to mike I'm not sure at all how to connect this to Leontiev.
Have much work to do in that connection... Motivation maybe?

On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 6:24 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
To let Hegel speak for himself. In The Subjective Spirit, after the
"master-servant" narrative, he says:

  "To prevent any possible misunderstandings with regard to the
  standpoint just outlined, we must here remark that the fight for
  recognition pushed to the extreme here indicated can only occur in
  the natural state, where men exist only as single, separate
  individuals; but it is absent in civil society and the State because
  here the recognition for which the combatants fight already exists.
  For although the State may originate in violence, it does not rest
  on it" (1830/1971 §432n).

Andy

Andy Blunden wrote:
I have written/spoken eslewhere and at length on R R Williams (as well as
Robert Brandom, Axel Honneth and others) and I regard their postmodern
interpretation of recognition-without-culture. I regard it as the main
barrier to an understanding of CHAT or Hegel of our times.

Functionalism is interesting in the way you mentioned, in that it
prefigured more contemporary currents which also do away  with any centre of
power but cast power as flowing through "capillaries" - a more radical
conception of power-wthout-a-centre actually.

Andy

mike cole wrote:
Thanks for providing a link back to the Leontiev/functionalism
discussion, Andy.

The links appear to go right through your home hegelian territory and
link us up
to current discussions of "recognition." They also link up with ideas
linked to
Zygmund Bauman's "Liquid Modernity." And to the many other people whose
work
I know too little of.

With respect to functionalism, casting national aspersions aside  :-))
, it never occurred to me during my years getting trained to be a learning
theorist in the
Skinnerian tradition, to consider the question of "where does the
function come from" or "who is exerting power here?"  We starved the rats
and they ran or died. Or coerced sophomores using grades as "part of their
education."

Then I went to Moscow. Where the caste of characters under discussion
were my hosts. Like I said. I am a slow learner on all these complicated
matters. At the rate I am going I am never going to figure it all out!

:-)
mike





On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:

   In my view, Mike, there were some basic questions asked and
   answered by A N Leontyev in launching the enquiry we know as
   "Activity Theory" are uneliminable, that is, he took a step which
   has to be valued and continued. But it was a step at an extremely
   fundamental level. It absolutely left open Stalinist-functionalist
   directions and well as emancipatory directions. Personally, I
   think the impact of the "planned economy" and the "leadership"
   which understood "the laws of history" and the state which
   represented a "higher stage of society" and so on, left a mark on
   the whole current. But its basics, its fundamentals remain intact.
   It only remains to agree on what those were.

   By-the-by, the home of "functionalism" is the USA.

   By-the-by again, in the early 80s I was a member of a Trotskyist
   party which put Ilyenkov on a pedastal, and published new
   translations of his work in English, which also came very close to
   endorsing Lamarkism. It debated it, but the Party perished before
   the debate was resolved.

   Andy

   mike cole wrote:

       I am being very slow  here. How does this discussion resolve
       or help me to
       think more clearly about the issues in the subject line? the
       issues over
       different interpretations of Leontiev, their relation to
       functionalism,
       stalinism, fascism, etc?
       mike

       On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Greg Thompson
       <greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
       <mailto:greg.a.thompson@gmail.com>>wrote:

                   Larry,
           IMHO, you're hitting the heart of the matter with
           recognition and
           agency - self-assertion vs. self-emptying seems a nice way
           to think
           about the central problematic (and I agree with your
           preference for
           the latter). If you are interested in developing a more more
           self-emptying Kyoto-like notion of recognition, I've got a
           couple of
           suggestions (and I'm sure I've made these suggestions in a
           different
           context before, so apologies for redundancy).

           First, I'd strongly encourage a read of Robert Williams'
           Ethics of
           Recognition. In Williams' read of Hegel, you find an
           articulation of
           recognition that is much more like the Kyoto understanding of
           recognition and which is against the crass version you get
           from the
           existentialists where recognition always about a fight or
           struggle for
           recognition. As evidence of the cultural tendency toward
           self-assertion, it is very telling that one small
           paragraph in Hegel's
           oeuvre would get picked up as the thing that most people
           for most of
           the 20th century would equate with Hegel's notion of
           "recognition."
           But that approach is shortsighted and Williams really
           nails this
           point. (although I am persuaded by Willaims'
           interpretation, I don't
           have any skin in the game of whether or not this is a more
           or less
           "authentic" interpretation of Hegel - I just happen to
           believe that
           the position Williams articulates is far more productive
           than the
           struggle-for-recognition model that has been on offer from the
           existentialists).

           Second, to provide some further support for this claim,
           I'd also
           suggest checking out Johann Georg Hamann, who is said to
           have been a
           significant influence on Hegel (but don't read Isaiah
           Berlin's stuff
           on Hamann, he misses the point). Hamann didn't really
           publish much. He
           was most noted for his letters to his friend, Immanuel
           Kant and in
           which he repeatedly tells Kant that he's got it all wrong
           (and does it
           in a style that makes the point through medium as well as,
           if not more
           than, message - a point which itself speaks to one of his
           central
           points about the importance of poetics). In these letters,
           Hamann has
           a wonderful sense of the intractability of human life, and the
           fundamental wrong-headedness of the desire for sovereign
           agency. I'd
           be happy to share more if there is any interest.

           Oh, and I forgot there is a third author of interest in
           this regard,
           Patchen Markell's Bound by Recognition gives a compelling
           portrait of
           what he calls "the impropriety of action" - the sense in
           which our
           actions are not our property alone. Markell's book argues
           that tragedy
           (and its twin, comedy) derives from this very human
           problem. Also
           great stuff.

           All three of these readings I suggest as a way of pointing
           out that
           within Western traditions there is a trope that is closer to
           self-emptying than self-asserting. Unfortunately it
           doesn't articulate
           as well with Enlightenment perspectives because it is
           often, as with
           Hamann, articulated through Christianity. This presents
           something of a
           marketing problem since the Enlightenment put Christianity
           as a thing
           of the past and as the kind of believing that small minded
           people do
           (the kind that tote guns and don't believe in evolution),
           and thus a
           not very appealing thing for most Westerner's "natural" (i.e.
           "cultural") inclination to self-assertion. So I think that
           as a matter
           of packaging, Buddhism, with its stripped down religious
           ideology,
           probably has more appeal to most post-Enlightenment
           Western thinkers.

           And I wanted to add that I feel like your posts are
           speaking directly
           to me and maybe we can carry on this conversation in more
           detail
           somewhere down the road (in a different thread, I
           suspect). So many
           thanks for your words (even if they weren't "intended" for
           me - a
           fortuitous impropriety to be sure!).

           Anyway, hope all is well,
           greg


           On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 1:02 PM, Larry Purss
           <lpscholar2@gmail.com <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>> wrote:
                             I'm enjoying this line [circle? spiral?] of
inquiry.

               David,  you wrote


               The mind is a highly parsimonious thing; it is very
               tiring to believe one
               thing and say another. Vygotsky's genetic law predicts
               that eventually it
               is the former that shall cede to the latter.

               I want to go out on a speculative limb that tries to
               weave together some
                               of
                             Wittgenstein's notions that are also
expressed in John
               Shotter's
               exploration of conversation.

               The question of the relation and distinction between
               "taking a position"
               and "developing dispositions"  In David's quote above
               "believing" one
                               thing
                             [a position] and "saying" [practicing
another]  will
               over time eventually
               lead to the practice winning out over the belief.

               Their are a group of scholars in Japan referred to as
               "the kyoto school"
               who are engaged in the project of having an indepth
               conversation between
               Buddhism and German Continental philosophy.

               A central difference the authors of the Kyoto school
               are articulating is
               different notions [and values] of "intersubjectivity"
               as epressed in the
               contrasting concepts
               "self-assertion" and "self-emptying".

               They suggest many Western notions of intersubjectivity
               and recognition
                               are
                             in pursuit of recognizing our assertoric
stance or
               position towards
                               words,
                             self, other, & world. This assertive
position can be
               expressed in
               emancipatory notions of "finding one's VOICE" and
               overcoming being
               "silenced".  Anger and conflict leading to overcoming
               resistance from
               within classes, races, genders. Through recognition
               [being seen and
               listened to develops the capacity to move from a
               silenced "voice" to an
               assertive "voice"] one stands up and speaks back to
               the dominating
               constraints and the shame and humiliation that
               silences voices.

               As Shotter [in Christine's quotes above shows] the
               assertoric position of
               challenging dominant structures and power can be seen
               as expressing a
               particular "attitude" or "style" or "posture".

               This style or attitude valorizes "the assertoric
               stance" in the world"
               which develops into an enduring "disposition" if we
               keep "saying" this
                               form
                             of recognition and emancipation.

               However, the Kyoto School, in deep conversation with
               this assertoric
               "position" and "disposition" suggests or gestures
               toward an "alternative"
               [not truer, more real, but an alternative]
               They suggest Buddhist practice and "saying" can guide
               or mediate another
               in*formation of "self" that they express in the
               concept of "self-emptying
               This is NOT a passive or resigned form of agency but
               rather an active
               intentional positioning of self that attempts to
               foreground the
               "fallibility" and "uncertainty" of ALL positioning and
               assertoric
                               stances.
                             This is a deeply intersubjective practice of
valuing
               "emergence" and
               "openning spaces" in which to INVITE the other to
               exist by the practice
                               of
                             mving our self from center stage.  Finding
one's
               "voice" from this
                               position
                             of ACTIVE INTENTIONAL self-emptying [and
creating the
               openning space for
               the other's "voice" to emerge] is a very different
               "attitude" or "stance"
               or "posture" to take leading to a very different
               "disposition" from
                               within
                             a very different form of "saying" and
"practice".

               I "read" scholars such as Wittgenstein, Shotter,
               Gadamer, Buber, Levinas,
               as exploring this alternative in*formation of "self"
               that is less
               assertoric in finding one's "voice" and moving towards
               a posture of
               self-emptying that embraces FALLIBILITY, UNCERTAINTY,
               AMBIVALENCE, NOT
               KNOWING, at the heart of this particular way of
               becoming human.
               I do believe this is an historically guided
               perspective that embraces
               multiple perspectives and multiple practices.
               Intersubjectivity and dialogical hermeneutical
               perspectives and the
               multiple formations this conversation can take
                [expressing alternative
               moral committments] is the concept at the center of
               this possible
                               inquiry.
                             I'm not sure how "possible" it is for
persons in North
               America to
                               consider
                             such alternative moral compasses as explored
by the
               Kyoto School. [it may
               be beyond our horizon of understanding to envision as
               a possibility].
               It is also difficult to grasp Wittgenstein's attempt
               to "see through"
               theoretical positions as a practice and disposition.


               Self-asserion is often viewed as the only path to
               intentional stances and
               postures in finding one's voice to participate in
               GENERATIVE
               conversations.  Is there merit in engaging with
               another tradition
                               exploring
                             agentic ACTORS actively practising
"self-emptying"
               motivated by the deep
               disposition and committment to generative dialogical
               ways of practice.??
               As I said in my opening remarks, this is going "out on
               a limb". Is
                               conflict
                             and anger the ONLY motivators that can be
harnessed to
               transform the
               world??
               I'm also aware that my position as a "white male" with
               a secure job may
                               be
                             calling me to take a naive "utopian"
perspective.
               At the minimum I want to suggest that it is these types of
                               "conversations"
                             across "traditions" such as the Kyoto School
scholars
               are engaged in
                                which
                             invite us into a world conversation which
puts into
               play the monolithic
               bias towards the assertoric stance in the world.

               I'm preparing for "challenges" to this alternative
               "attitude" but am
               putting it out there in a spirit of the holiday season
               to think outside
                               our
                             Western notions of "self-assertion" and
finding one's
               voice.

               Larry









               On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 12:04 AM, David Kellogg <
                               vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
           <mailto:vaughndogblack@yahoo.com>>wrote:
                                 Ivan:

                   At the beginning of  the Philosophical
                   Investigations, Wittgenstein
                                     quotes
                                 Augustine, who describes the
indescribable
                   experience of learning a
                                     first
                                 language in Latin, and remarks that his
model of
                   language (a big bag of
                   names) is OK, but only for a very restricted
                   application; there are many
                   things we call language for which it is not
                   appropriate. And thence to
                                     his
                                 famous discussion of complexes, in the
form of
                   games and language games.

                   I think what I said was that Wittgenstein's
                   account of language is
                   pragmatic in a linguistic sense. Pragmatics is
                   about the use of
                                     language,
                                 as opposed to its usage (which is more
or less
                   what Augustine is
                   describing, language as a dictionary written in
                   some form of mentalese,
                   where every language is necessarily a foreign
                   language).

                   And I think what Wittgenstein says about language
                   applies to every
                                     account
                                 of language, even his own; it is
appropriate, but
                   ony for a very
                                     restricted
                                 application. In that way it is like a
metaphor (as
                   we see in the
                                     language
                                 games section, and the tool box section,
it really
                   IS a metaphor). So I
                   think we need to ask the question where it stops
                   being appropriate.

                   As Andy points out, it doesn't describe conceptual
                   thinking very well.
                                     But
                                 that is not because the pragmatic
account of
                   language is a subset of
                                     some
                                 larger conceptual account; I think that
the
                   relationship is quite the
                                     other
                                 way around: scientific concepts are a
rarefied,
                   specialized subset of
                   semantic meaning, and of course semantic meaning
                   took many centuries of
                   billions of daily interactions to be precipitated
                   from everyday
                                     pragmatics.
                                 Now it seems to me that on this scale of
things,
                   the cultural individual
                   really is quite unchanging and hidebound, rather
                   like a bottle. We
                                     rejoice
                                 that Western women do not bind their
feet--and
                   instead mutilate their
                   chests with silicon implants. We rejoice in not
                   stoning women for
                                     adultery
                                 and congratulate ourselves on no longer
insisting
                   on the male ownership
                                     of
                                 sexuality that this entails, but we so
stigmatize
                   child sexual abuse
                                     that
                                 children's lives, and not simply their
putative
                   purity, are now at risk
                   from pedophiles, and nobody reflects that what is
                   really threatened
                                     here is
                                 the parental ownership of sexual access
to their
                   children.

                   This morning's New York Times, just for example,
                   has a thoroughly silly
                   article on North Korea by one Nicolas Kristof. We
                   are told that
                   apartments in Pyeongyang are all equipped with
                   telescreens that
                   make propaganda announcements of, e.g., the
                   leaders' golf scores. We
                                     have a
                                 similar telescreen in our apartment in
Seoul,
                   which announces municipal
                   elections and tells where to find the local leader
                   of the anti-communist
                   militia. The difference is that when we do it is
                   feels normal.

                   Kristof certainly does not feel hidebound; he is
                   quite comfortable in
                                     his
                                 own skin. Nevertheless, he tells a
wildly
                   brainwashed account of the
                                     way in
                                 which North Korea developed nuclear
weapons. He
                   correctly remembers
                                     that in
                                 1994 an agreement was negotiated to
build nuclear
                   power plants in North
                   Korea (he carefully omits to say that these would
                   be non-weaponizable
                   and built by South Korean companies). Now,
                   according to Kristof, the
                   Clinton administration only did this because they
                   fooishly assumed that
                                     the
                                 regime would collapse before the
reactors were
                   actually built! Wisely,
                                     the
                                 Bush administration caught the North
Koreans
                   "cheating", and tore up the
                   agreement.

                   What really happened, as anybody with a memory
                   longer than the Bush
                   adminstration will tell you, was that the North
                   Koreans asked for, and
                                     got,
                                 a codicil that would supply them with
fuel oil for
                   energy as a stopgap
                   measure (if you look at the widely circulated
                   satellite picture of North
                   Korea at night you will see why they insisted on
                   this). The Clinton
                   Administration always boasted that the fuel oil
                   they supplied was
                                     unusably
                                 poor, but that was not enough for the
Bush
                   adminstration. They simply
                   reneged on the agreement. But the North did not
                   renege: they had
                                     promised
                                 they would develop nuclear weapons if
the deal
                   fell through, and that is
                   what they did.

                   Why does Kristof tell this transparent lie?
                   Doesn't it go against the
                   usual NYT ethos of telling the truth about
                   checkable and trivial
                                     matters so
                                 as to be able to deceive with the
necessary
                   authority when it comes to
                                     the
                                 essentials? I think, alas, Mr. Kristof
simply
                   cannot control himself any
                   more (see his WILDLY improbable tale about a
                   husband executing his own
                                     wife
                                 for writing a highly implausible letter
to Kim
                   Jeong-il himself). The
                   leather mask has become a face.

                   And I think that is probably what happened to poor
                   Leontiev as well. The
                   mind is a highly parsimonious thing; it is very
                   tiring to believe one
                                     thing
                                 and say another. Vygotsky's genetic law
predicts
                   that eventually it is
                                     the
                                 former that shall cede to the latter.

                   It is that sense in which what Mike says is true:
                   Vygotsky's psychology,
                   as a scientific system, describes the development
                   of institutionalized
                   lying just as accurately as it describes the
                   development of higher
                   concepts. What I wanted to say was that his
                   earlier sense that ideas are
                   always embodied, and some bodies are gifted with
                   an extraordinary
                   foresight, is also true. I think Vygotsky knew
                   that he would die, but he
                   also knew that his ideas, so long as they were
                   true ones, would live.

                   David Kellogg
                   Hankuk University of Foreign Studies



                   --- On Wed, 12/21/11, Ivan Rosero
                   <irosero@ucsd.edu <mailto:irosero@ucsd.edu>> wrote:


                   From: Ivan Rosero <irosero@ucsd.edu
                   <mailto:irosero@ucsd.edu>>
                   Subject: Re: [xmca] Interpreting Leontiev:
                   functionalism and Anglo
                                     Finnish
                                 Insufficiences
                   To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
                   <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
                   Date: Wednesday, December 21, 2011, 6:50 PM


                   David, if you agree with the summary Larry has
                   presented, I remain
                                     confused
                                 by your analogy.  I read Larry's
presentation of
                   Kitching/Pleasant as
                   saying that action cobbles together further sense
                   within already-given
                   sense that is simultaneously ideal-material, and
                   therefore subject to
                   culturally and historically specific constraints
                   and possibilities.  But
                   surely, this includes the bottle and the person
                   too, both as moving
                   entities (the bottle, unless highly heated, a much
                   more slowly moving
                   entity).  I am not invested in any particular
                   reading of Leontiev, but
                                     your
                                 analogy as presented suggests a kind of
essential
                   fixity to the person
                   which I want to believe you don't really mean.

                   To be fair, your emphasis is on the wine in the
                   bottle.  But, in this
                                     case,
                                 a slowly moving bottle is rather less
interesting
                   than a human being,
                                     with
                                 a rather less historically complex
relationship to
                   the liquid it gives
                   shape to.

                   Does what Andy refer to help here?  What kind of
                   concept-complex (is it
                   enough to call it Stalinism?) helps to explain the
                   Leontiev at issue
                                     here?
                                 Or, if the critique was there from early
on, what
                   kind of
                                     concept-complex
                                 would help to explain his writings' wide
acceptance?

                   Or, do we forgo all this and just grab Leontiev,
                   as you say, "on a good
                   day"?

                   Ivan



                   On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 3:55 PM, David Kellogg <
                                     vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
<mailto:vaughndogblack@yahoo.com>
                                     wrote:
                                Mike wrote that as he grows older, he
                       becomes less attached to his
                       position (expressed in his editorial
                       commentary to Luria's
                                           autobiography,
                                     "The Making of Mind") that ideas
really are
                       highly embodied things.
                                           Mike
                                     says that as he grows older, he
becomes more
                       and more attached to
                                           Luria's
                                     position that only ideas matter.

                       But as I grow older, I become more and more
                       attached to Mike's
                                           original
                                     position that individuals really
matter. Wine
                       has no shape of its
                                           own; it
                                     really depends on what bottle we put
it in,
                       and the form of ideas
                                           depends
                                     very much on the character of the
individuals
                       wo carry them.

                       On paper, the theoretical positions of
                       Vygotsky and Leontiev are not
                                           that
                                     far apart. So when Mike asks what
presents
                       Vygotsky's ideas from being
                       pressed into service by the Stalinist state, I
                       think the answer has
                                           to be
                                     referred to the individual who
carried this
                       idea after all.

                       I think it is not accidental that one was
                       amenable and the other was
                                           not,
                                     that one's ideas were deformed and
                       degenerated, and the others still
                                                   amaze
                                                 by their freshness and
color. Nor is it
                       accidental that one lived and
                                           one
                                     died.

                       But of course death is simply the moment when
                       our thinking and spoken
                       speech must come to an end, and our written
                       speech, like a hermit
                                           crab,
                                     must find a new home in the minds
and mouths
                       of others. And by that
                       measure, it was Vygotsky who lived on, yea,
                       even in the mind and the
                                                   mouth
                                                 of Leontiev. Well,
Leontiev on a good day!

                       David Kellogg
                       Hankuk University of Foreign Studies

                       PS; I think I am (once again) with Larry. I
                       think that if we read
                                           (late)
                                     Wittgenstein as a linguistic (not a
                       philosophical) pragmatist, that
                                           is,
                                 as
                                                 someone who believes
that meaning in language
                       comes from sense in
                                                   activity,
                                                 Wittgenstein is
perfectly consistent with what
                       Marx writes in the
                                           German
                                     Ideology (that language is practical
                       consciousness, real for myself
                                                   because
                                                 real for others).
Wittgenstein is
                       Vygotsky-compatible in other ways,
                                           too,
                                     e.g. his argument about
preconceptual
                       "families" and his argument
                                           about
                                 the
                                                 tool like nature of
signs.

                       dk

                       --- On Wed, 12/21/11, mike cole
                       <lchcmike@gmail.com
                       <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>> wrote:


                       From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com
                       <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
                       Subject: Re: [xmca] Interpreting Leontiev:
                       functionalism and Anglo
                                                   Finnish
                                                 Insufficiences
                       To: "Larry Purss" <lpscholar2@gmail.com
                       <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
                       Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
                       <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
                       <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>, "Morten
                       Nissen" <Morten.Nissen@psy.ku.dk
                       <mailto:Morten.Nissen@psy.ku.dk>>
                       Date: Wednesday, December 21, 2011, 2:12 PM


                       Very helpful, Larry. Thanks.

                       As I read the Leontiev materials what was at
                       issue in 1949 is whether
                                                   there
                                                 is any "third space" of
the self in the "unity
                       of consciousness and
                       activity." I take Stalinism
                       in these materials to refer to the way that
                       idealism is joined with
                                                   belief
                                                 in some sort of
"autonomous" realm of thought.
                       Zinchenko's work on
                       micromovements of the eye and perceptual
                       action seem to me now
                                                   significant
                                                 in exactly this respect:
they point to a rapid
                       simulation process
                                           which
                                 is
                                                 not mechanically
connected to externalized
                       action (as one example). If
                                                   you
                                                 know the future of
history and what is good
                       for everyone, all such
                       processes risk deviation from "the true path."
                       The motives of the
                                                   "healthy"
                                                 individual are supposed
to coincide with those
                       of the "collective" (as
                       represented by the general secretary of the
                       central committee of the
                       communist party). Functionalism as command and
                       control statism.

                       If we accept THIS version of CHAT, seems to me
                       that Phillip is
                                           corrrect -
                                     Use the ideas for something called
communism,
                       fascism, ANY form of
                       collective social project.

                       David says this is Leontiev's (AT) problem,
                       not Vygotsky's (CH)
                                           problem.
                                     Larry points
                       to Wittgensteinian marxism that appears to
                       provide a way to select
                                           wheat
                                     from chaff (or discover a different
level of
                       chaff!).

                       My guess is that German, Russian, and other
                       thinkers have already
                                           carried
                                     this conversation pretty far....
Morten's
                       citation of German work
                                           points
                                 to
                                                 this conclusion.

                       But how are we poor non_Russian, non_German
                       reading unfortunates
                                                   wandering
                                                 in the woods to find our
way?

                       mike

                       On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 12:08 PM, Larry Purss
                       <lpscholar2@gmail.com
                       <mailto:lpscholar2@gmail.com>>
                       wrote:

                                                           Hi Andy,
Christine, Mike
                           I have been hibernating on Mayne Island, a
                           small Island between
                                                         Vancouver
                                                     and Vancouver and
Vancouver Island.
                           [school break for the holidays]
                                                 No
                                         internet except at the small
library]

                           I was interested in this comment from
                           Morten Nissen on Andy's book

                           Blunden, as it were, attacks it from the
                           “opposite” side: the

 functionalism
                                                           of Leontiev’s
way of relating subject with
                           society. This has to do
                                                 with
                                     how
                                                           objects and
motives appear to coincide in
                           Leontiev’s idealized
                                                 image of
                                     the
                                                           true society,
that is, the society of
                           original communism and that of
                                                         the
                                                     Soviet Union.
                           Andy, it is this notion of "coinciding"
                           that I have difficulty with
                                                         when
                                                     reading about
Activity Theory.

                           Leontiev's statements such as "Education
                           is the decisive force which
                                                             forms
                                                           man
intellectually. This intellectual
                           development MUST CORRESPOND TO
                                                         THE
                                                     AIMS AND THE NEEDS
OF THE ENTIRE SOCIETY.
                            It must fully agree with
                                                         REAL
                                                     human needs"

                           I'm been browsing through an edited  book
                           by Gavin Kitching and
                                                 Nigel
                                         Pleasant titled "Marx and
Wittgenstein:
                           Knowledge, Morality,
                                                 Politics."
                                         These authors take an
interesting
                           perspective on materialism &
                                                 idealism
                                         that gives idealism its place in
our human
                           being [in contrast to
                                                 how I
                                     read
                                                           Leontiev}
                           These authors are exploring a
                           Wittgensteinian Marxism that examines
                                                             Marx's
                                                           notion that
"The tradition of all the dead
                           generations weighs like a
                           nightmare on the brain of the living" A
                           Wittgensteinian Marxist
                                                 reading
                                         [from the authors perspective]
would make
                           3 points.

                           1] Tradition and circumstances cannot be
                           understood in ABSTRACTION
                                                 FROM
                                         the traditions and
understandings that
                           people have of these

 circumstances.
                                                           2] WHATEVER
 such varied understandings
                           may consist (class, culture,
                           gender etc) nonetheless some KINDS of
                           actions by historical subjects
                           [agents, actors] will prove impossible IF
                           these actions are entered
                                                         into
                                                 in
                                                           disregard to
the traditions and
                           circumstances directly GIVEN,
                                                         ENCOUNTERED
                                                     and transmitted from
the past
                           3] A principle WAY in which the TRADITIONS
                           OF THE DEAD GENERATIONS
                                                         weighs
                                                     like a nightmare on
the brain of the
                           living is that ANTECEDENT
                                                         historical
                                                     circumstances often
make it IMPOSSIBLE TO
                           THINK AND FEEL (and
                                                 therefore
                                         act)in certain ways.
Historically created
                           material culture restricts
                                                         and
                                                     enables the making
of PARTICULAR KINDS of
                           history. People do not
                                                 try to
                                     do
                                                           things and
then for "material reasons"
                           find they cannot do things. (
                                                             cannot
                                                           make history
as THEY PLEASE ) Such
                           traditions and circumstances
                                                 DEEPLY
                                     FORM
                                                           what it is
that present generations can
                           DESIRE TO DO. and CONCEIVE
                                                 OF.
                                     (as
                                                           well as what
actions they can conceive of
                           as being
                                                 possible/impossible,
                                         feasible/unfeasible)

                           It is human action in and on the world
                           that inextricably LINKS
                                                 THOUGHT
                                         (and language) TO MATERIAL
REALITY.
                           Historical traditions and

 circumstances
                                                           are the
outcomes of previous generations
                           actions [intended &
                                                         unintended]
                                                     which place
constraints on present
                           generations. Constraints on what
                                                         they
                                                     can think, feel,
desire (and how they act)
                           By keeping these 3 points in mind the
                           authors suggest we can avoid
                                                             falling
                                                           into the DEEP
CONFUSIONS which have always
                           attended the
                                                 material/ideal
                                         distinction.
                           The most DIRECT and comprehensible way to
                           SEE THROUGH this
                                                         material/ideal
                                                     distinction is to
see that all action is
                           simultaneously mental &
                                                             physical,
                                                           material &
ideal.  Neither material or
                           ideal is an "epiphenomena" of
                                                         the
                                                     other.

                           In my reading of Leontiev in the chapter
                           from the book posted I
                                                 don't
                                 see
                                                     the nuances
recognizing the depths of the
                           "ideal" within Marx's
                                                 theory.
                                         This edited book, by putting
Marx into
                           explicit conversation is
                           elaborating a Wittgensteinian Marxism or a
                           Marxist Wittgenstein.

                           Larry

                           On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 7:39 PM, mike cole
                           <lchcmike@gmail.com
                           <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
                                                 wrote:
                                             Below are two quotations
from Morten
                               Nissen's review of Andy
                                                       Blunden's
                                             book
                               on activity theory. Full review in
                               current issue of MCA.

                               After presenting the quotation, a comment.
                               mike
                               -------------------

                               Morten Nissen on Leontiev,
                               functionalism, and Stalinism



                               ….behind this terminological trouble
                               lies a deep theoretical
                                                       problem
                                 in
                                                         Leontiev’s
social theory. This problem
                               was identified in the German
                                                               and
                                                         Scandinavian
reception (Axel & Nissen,
                               1993; Holzkamp, 1979;
                                                               Osterkamp,
                                                         1976) but almost
completely ignored in
                               the Anglo-Finnish (with

 Miettinen,
                                                               2005, and
Kaptelinin, 2005, as the
                               noble exceptions to the
                                                       rule)—and
                                             Blunden, as it were, attacks
it from
                               the “opposite” side: the
                               functionalism
                               of Leontiev’s way of relating subject
                               with society. This has to do
                                                               with
                                                         how
                               objects and motives appear to coincide
                               in Leontiev’s idealized
                                                       image
                                 of
                                                         the
                               true society, that is, the society of
                               original communism and that
                                                       of
                                 the
                                                         Soviet Union.



                               >From the perspective of this
                               functionalist utopia, a psychology
                                                       could
                                             become relevant only in the
face of
                               the undeveloped and the
                                                       deviant:
                                 as
                                                 in
                                                               fact,
according to Leontiev (1978),
                               children and disturbed provide
                                                       the
                                             tasks of psychology in the
                               institutions of the Soviet Union. To
                               paraphrase:
                               The child who puts down her book still
                               has not grasped the harmony
                                                       of
                                             society’s needs with the
desire to
                               learn that she *must*

                               develop—she has not yet developed
                               those “higher cultural needs.”

 Bourgeois
                                                               society is
another matter, where sense
                               and meaning are divided in
                               principle, but this matter—that of
                               ideology and social

 critique—Leontiev
                                                         sets aside and
forgets. An elaborate
                               critique of Leontiev’s

 functionalism
                                                               was given
already in 1980 (Haug,
                               Nemitz,& Waldhubel, 1980), and the
                               background was explained by Osterkamp
                               (1976) in her groundbreaking
                                                               work
                                                 on
                                                               the theory
of motivation.

                               --------------------------------

                               Comment.


                               When I first read these passages as
                               part of the attempted "swap of
                                                                   ideas"
                                                               that
Morten and  I tried to organize
                               around

                               our reviews of Andy's book in Outlines
                               and MCA, I commented how
                                                       sad it
                                     was
                                                               that the
elaborate critique that goes
                               back to

                               1980 is not in English and fully
                               engaged by both European and
                                "Ango-Finns"
                               (although how poor  Viktor got into
                               that category

                               I do not know!).


                               Seems like real interchange around
                               these issues is long overdue.
                                                       But
                                     given
                                                               the
progress of the last couple of
                               years, I'll not be

                               holding my breath!

                               --------------------------


                               But thinking about the issues as well
                               as my limited language (and
                                                               other)
                                                         capacities
allow.

                               mike
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   --
------------------------------------------------------------------------
   *Andy Blunden*
   Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
   Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
   Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
   <http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857>


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857

__________________________________________
_____
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xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
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--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA: http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/18/1
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857


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