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Re: [xmca] trinocular perception
Andy, Larry:
Andy's citation should read "unpublished MA thesis by Jo Hyosun, Seoul National University of Education, 2007". (I can send you the whole thesis, which is about a hundred pages long, or the article we wrote together which is about thirty; they are both in English).
I guess I'd call our perspective (and Vygotsky's) a trinocular one: synthetic, from below, analytic, from above, and participatory, from round about and inside the story. But it's really just a form of analysis-for-synthesis. Vygotsky's point, you remember, is that speech has two different dimensions, one of which is part to whole (the synthetic, syntactic dimension of formulating utterances) and one of which is whole ot parts (which is actually not perception, but rather semantic processing).
Jo Hyosun found that children who watched a video clip could barely list the nouns they had seen, and were only capable of stringing them together into a story if they were HEAVILY prompted. In particular, the processes could only be conveyed by yes/no questions.
The spectacular part of the result was that later (sometimes even two days later, when the literal memory of the clip should have completely faded) the children were able to role play the story using whole utterances, some of which were actually more complete (that is, closer to the original utterances they heard on the video clip) than the yes/no questions and wh-questions the teacher had used in debriefing the video clip.
We also used two different "tools" to assist role play, one of which consisted of a cartoon with speech bubbles (placing the children "inside" the story) and the other of which consisted of a map of the characters' movements (placing the children "outside" the story). The former was significantly more effective in recovering the text the children had heard.
Now, part of this is simply that it's much easier for the children to use direct speech, participatively inside the story, than indirect speech, descriptively outside it. But not all of it. When we asked the children to immediately role play, right after the video clip, we got very little language; the most effective strategy--by far--was for the children to analyze the text using y/n questions and wh-questions with the teacher and then role play it at a later date.
So I think Larry (and Vygotsky) is right. What is really required is analysis for synthesis: the analyzing of a picture/video in order to re-synthesize it as a role play. There are really THREE ways of approaching the picture video: as a passive observer, as an active understander, and as a participatory enactant. Halliday would call this trinocular vision.
David KelloggSeoul National University of Education
--- On Fri, 6/24/11, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
Subject: Re: [xmca] perception
To: "Larry Purss" <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date: Friday, June 24, 2011, 7:35 AM
Larry do I read you correctly, that you are advocated "binocular vision," seeing both from whole to part and from part to whole?
OK, that's a point. There are indeed contexts in which a process proceeds in that way. "The absolute is also relative."
But also "There is an absolute within the relative." A neuroscientific understanding of the psyche must *still* begin from the whole.
Andy
Larry Purss wrote:
> Hi Andy
> I want to add on to your comment
> It intrigues me the doggedness of the prejudice of analytical
> philosophy, going back centuries and right up to the present day, that
> perception and indeed the Universe itself, begins with arbitrarily small
> individual chunks and composes the whole from there up, bit by bit. And
> there is no basis in fact for the prejudice at all. I could cite Liberal
> and bourgeois ideology, I suppose, but even then it seems difficult to
> accept.
> Lawrence Hass in his book about Merleau-Ponty talks about this theme when he talks about analyzing living perception through neuroscientific explanations. Hass takes the stance that analytic explanations are always derivative from the totality of lived perception. One must experience the gestalen before proceeding to analyze it. Analytic explanations are always ABOUT experience. However he makes an important point that it does not follow from this stance that 2nd order constructions are IDEAL of a MORE ORIGINAL reality. The sense-data atomistic perspective of much of science is ideal. BUT for Hass the nerves and synapses ARE REAL and modular brain FUNCTIONS are explanations of the real. Analysis can tell us about the real. However, analysis always constucts THIS particular PERSPECTIVE, as a form of discourse, [way of thinking, speaking, and working] which is always PARTIAL, always LIMITED, always BOUND to a perspective. The
neurobiological perspective IS real but NOT MORE REAL than living perception. At an ontological level perception [lived experience or neurobiology]is always BOUND TO PERSPECTIVES that are always partial and partial. [This is to keep in mind our culture's bias or "prejudice" against prejudice is also bound to a particular perspective] Hass, used the metaphor of BInocular vision to elaborate this point.[Merleau-Ponty and Bateson both used this metaphor] Every monocular vision is partial and looking out of one eye gives a REAL but partial perception. Each eye gives a partial perspective on the world. Neither of these partial monocular visions can be compared with the BInocular gestalen vision that has more depth and clarity than either of the monocular visions. MEANING from either monocular vision and meaning from binocular vision are different FORMS of recognition. Merleau-Ponty's project is to explore these differences.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 11:53 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>
> Thanks David. Vygotsky is reporting Stern's work in the citation I
> gave,
> but refers to the method "introduced into psychology a long time
> ago" so
> he wasn't even going to give Stern credit for originality in this
> instance.
> But anyway, I can cite "unpublished work by D. Kellogg" for
> authetication. Thank you.
>
> It intrigues me the doggedness of the prejudice of analytical
> philosophy, going back centuries and right up to the present day, that
> perception and indeed the Universe itself, begins with arbitrarily
> small
> individual chunks and composes the whole from there up, bit by
> bit. And
> there is no basis in fact for the prejudice at all. I could cite
> Liberal
> and bourgeois ideology, I suppose, but even then it seems difficult to
> accept.
>
> Andy
>
> David Kellogg wrote:
>
> Yes, Andy. The experiment was actually Stern's. One of my
> students and I replicated this experiment with a video clip
> and got even more spectacular results. We submitted this as
> our contribution to the MCA special issue on foreign language
> learning. Naturally, it was rejected, and we were told in no
> uncertain terms not to resubmit!
> David Kellogg
> Seoul National University of Education
>
> --- On *Thu, 6/23/11, Andy Blunden /<ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
> Subject: [xmca] perception
> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
> Date: Thursday, June 23, 2011, 10:41 PM
>
> Vygotsky reports on several occasions (eg LSV CW v. 5 pp
> 86-87) on
> an experiment in which children are shown a painting and then
> asked to describe it, but then in a variation on the
> experiment,
> are asked to act out what they see in the painting. Version 1
> tests the child's ability bring their perception into conscious
> awareness and then translate it into words and deliver a
> series of
> words one after the other, in answer to a question from a
> stranger
> and version 2 tests their perception of the painting more
> or less
> viscerally.
>
> Can anyone tell me if these results still sand or have
> there been
> more recent experiments perhaps producing some different
> result?
>
> Andy
>
>
> --
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> -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Joint Editor MCA:
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-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Joint Editor MCA: http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/title~db=all~content=g932564744
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Book: http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=34857
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