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Re: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"

Hmmmmm, like the French revolution or world war I for example?

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 4:18 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> Both Arne's and mine are listed on
> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/index.html and both are in that directory.
> I too would be interested in seeing some other versions. Something might
> emerge out of the crowd.
> It is interesting isn't that it is a quite small number of ... what do you
> say? ... millieux? events? movements? which produced the main ideas, via a
> whole mass of individual writers.
> Andy
> mike cole wrote:
>> I think your pictured genealogy is interesting, Andy. I thought Arne's was
>> too, and I a sure others can make interesting modifications. If anyone could
>> do this in three D it could get really fascinating.
>> Part of what makes for the partiality of any such attempt is the position
>> of the creator. Arne was a radical cultural historical cognitive scientist
>> of the
>> 70's-90's (roughly), an importatant odd hybrid and unusually nice guy.
>> Maturana, who is on his list, with Varela, were central figures on
>> bringing
>> dynamic systems into the discussion but you do not know about him just
>> as many of us do not know some of the figures you name, and the
>> connections such as Dilthey-Wundt or Mead-Dilthey-American pragmatism are
>> poorly known altogether, but fascinating (to me!) in their implications.
>> And, of course, the historical events that various of us might highlight
>> as
>> most relevant are going to vary as well.
>> Thanks for the new tool to think with. I'll try to get Arne's genealogy
>> put
>> up where yours is and perhaps others will contribute from their
>> perspectives.
>> mike
>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 6:42 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:
>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>    Well, here's my shot at it:
>>      http://lchc.ucsd.edu/mca/Paper/Genealogy-CHAT.pdf
>>    I have tried to deal with your very valid point, Martin, that it is
>>    more the milieux than individuals, but I have also just omitted a
>>    billion possible arrows so it is readable. It needs more than one
>>    person to do this.
>>    Andy
>>    Martin Packer wrote:
>>        My question about the map is what the links represent. After
>>        all, one scientist or philosopher may accept the ideas or
>>        another, or react against them, or modify them, or misunderstand
>>        them. Seems to me each of these is a different link. Also, a
>>        family tree indicates two parents for every progeny, where
>>        Arne's genealogy seemingly shows spontaneous generation - one
>>        figure alone can produce another. And wouldn't we want to have a
>>        way to map the milieus within which people were working? Perhaps
>>        something along the lines of the social fields that Bourdieu was
>>        fond of sketching, but with an added historical dimension.
>>        Martin
>>        On Nov 4, 2009, at 1:44 AM, Andy Blunden wrote:
>>            To tell the truth Louise, there are a couple of names I
>>            don't know and half a dozen I know so little about I don't
>>            know why they're included ... or not. Two of the three
>>            "outcomes" are people who think humans are a type of
>>            computer, so I am not surpised that this genealogy is odd to
>>            me. But there is sooooo much out there. So much to read. :(
>>            Up till a few weeks ago I thought that starting with
>>            Descartes was not justified, but I take that back now. But
>>            somehow, Rene's nemesis, Aristotle, needs to be included as
>>            well.
>>            I don't know anything about Vico, but I find Locke, Berkeley
>>            and Leibniz to be rather peripheral to *our* story.
>>            Kant certainly deserves an important place, but I think his
>>            nemesis, Goethe, may be more important for us.
>>            Fichte is actually the inventor of Activity as a
>>            philosophical concept (I just learnt that Hegel asked to be
>>            buried next to Fichte; like Goethe, very under recognized in
>>            the Anglophone world).
>>            Hegel is the inventor of Cultural Psychology, so agreed there.
>>            I think Stirner and Mach are total diversions from our
>>            tradition. But maybe someone can explain to me their role.
>>            Wundt and Dilthey are important, though I don't know them well.
>>            Feuerbach is a bit of a footnote, but if you're going to
>>            have Feuerbach, you've gotta have Moses Hess, author of
>>            "Philosophy of the Deed", and inspiration for "Theses on
>>            Feuerbach". Of course if you think Frege, Russell and Turing
>>            are important to the genealogy of CHAT, then you wouldn't
>>            want Hess.
>>            MARX, obviously, in CAPS.
>>            And I would have lines from a whole bunch of people going to
>>            Dewey, as well as Peirce and Mead, but even though Peirce
>>            was the elder, I don't think you can give him such priority.
>>            Dewey surely was the leader. Arguable.
>>            And where are the Gestaltists? Again, not for computer
>>            cognition, but there needs to be lines between Goethe and
>>            Kant and then to von Ehrenfels, and on to Koehler and Co.
>>            Russian linguists like Potebnya, but I don't know where they
>>            came from.
>>            And these threads are all tied together with LS Vygotsky, yes?
>>            Freud has to be mentioned (I forget his sources), with
>>            arrows to Luria. And after Vygotsky and Luria you have ANL
>>            and thus to present day people,
>>            I guess, you can't leave out Piaget, and I don't know
>>            Piaget's sources.
>>            I know some people rate Merleau-Ponty, but if you're going
>>            to give Merleau-Pony a seat, you have to put in Lukacs and
>>            Horkheimer. I guess Habermas for discourse ethics, etc.
>>            I have no idea why Husserl and Heidegger get a mention. I my
>>            humble opinion, as clever as they might be, their impact on
>>            Activity Theory has only been negative.
>>            I have no idea why Bergson is mentioned: was he a source for
>>            Piaget? Don't know why Nietzsche is there. Interesting guy,
>>            but so are many others. Why von Uexhill?
>>            I agree that Wittgenstein rates a mention, though I don't
>>            know how much of a source he has been for us. He is some
>>            kind of version of Activity Theory.
>>            Frege, Russell and Turing are nothing to do with CHAT. What
>>            about anthropologists??
>>            Never heard of Maturana.
>>            That's my reaction,
>>            Andy
>>            Louise Hawkins wrote:
>>                Andy,
>>                I remember seeing this diagram a number of years ago,
>>                and I found it useful as a big picture diagram to get my
>>                head around the significant theorist.
>>                Regards
>>                Louise Hawkins
>>                Lecturer - School of Management & Information Systems
>>                Faculty Business & Informatics
>>                Building 19/Room 3.38
>>                Rockhampton Campus
>>                CQUniversity
>>                Ph: +617 4923 2768
>>                Fax: +617 4930 9729
>>                 -----Original Message-----
>>                From: Andy Blunden [mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>>                <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>] Sent: Wednesday, 4 November
>>                2009 01:05 PM
>>                To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>                Subject: [xmca] Arne Raeithel's "genealogy"
>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Paper/Theoretical%20connections.jpg
>>                I never found this map very useful to be honest.
>>                Andy
>>                mike cole wrote:
>>                    Have you found Arne Raeithel's "genealogy" of
>>                    cultural-historical, activity theory thinkers from
>>                    several years back. I am sure it is somewhere at
>>                    lchc.ucsd.edu <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
>>                    <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>. Perhaps you (and Andy,
>>                    and.....) could update it with
>>                    more detail. Hegel generated so much that has been
>>                    "laundered" by subsequent "original" thinkers its
>>                    totally amazing, and ditto Mead (whose writings i
>>                    know far better, although very inadequately).
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>>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>            Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>            Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
>>            Ilyenkov $20 ea
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>>    Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
>>    Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
>>    Ilyenkov $20 ea
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov, Ilyenkov $20
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