[Xmca-l] Re: A contribution of value, I hope

[Anthony Barra]

Ok, good to hear. You should tell people to watch it! 😏



On Friday, June 19, 2020, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's great, Anthony--better than the original by half!
>
> N.B. "Meta-function" is a function-of-functions. So there is only ONE
> textual metafunction which INCLUDES functions like Theme (and subfunctions
> like "Topical Theme"). Thre is only ONE interpersonal metafunction, which
> INCLUDES functions like Mood (and subfunctions like Subject and Finite).
> There is only ONE ideational metafunction which INCLUDES functions like
> Participant (and subfunctions like Determiner, Epithet, Classifier, and
> Thing).
>
> I think you did the right thing in cutting to the classroom chase. But the
> link between Halliday and Vygotsky is sometimes made in pretty Polly-anna
> terms (hey, they both think social interaction is good for you). Halliday
> doesn't really have any use for the concept of "mind" (although he does use
> the concept of consciousness). Vygotsky doesn't really use the concept of
> metafunction (although he does distinguish between functions). To a lot of
> people, that suggests mutual repulsion; to me it suggests mutual dependency
> or at least very strong magnetism that Halliday would call
> "complementarity"..
>
> David Kellogg
> Sangmyung University
>
> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto.
> Outlines, Spring 2020
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RHx1axijAuRzPI0wROfpqBO5ilSx-pwihdMoGjfPbrdt2QqsTwI6dGu8nxmP5deYiralIw$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!QT8_RKuDxPBOPJ-QtyBofAJ4F7MYVLHeIIc4G8WzvkhAAL-lxLqWvlX_y6qIoKuLSFtKYQ$>
> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works* *Volume
> One: Foundations of Pedology*"
>  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RHx1axijAuRzPI0wROfpqBO5ilSx-pwihdMoGjfPbrdt2QqsTwI6dGu8nxmP5dfjWMnA5g$ 
>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QT8_RKuDxPBOPJ-QtyBofAJ4F7MYVLHeIIc4G8WzvkhAAL-lxLqWvlX_y6qIoKvalO6XMg$>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 8:53 AM Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Thank you to David Kellogg for weighing in on my
>> Halliday/threshold-concept question!
>>
>> David, I've taken your answer, edited it a tad, and added some light
>> annotations here: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/6qf1qz__;!!Mih3wA!RHx1axijAuRzPI0wROfpqBO5ilSx-pwihdMoGjfPbrdt2QqsTwI6dGu8nxmP5dcRrTZUAw$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://tiny.cc/6qf1qz__;!!Mih3wA!R1tuEz28TKCRX-z854TQcafClzwE-T5yfevnoxkw5DRwjpbz239rg0baB8eFK_R16hv7mQ$>
>>
>> Please let me know if anything needs changing; I don't want to publish
>> any misinformation.
>>
>> Thank you again,
>>
>> Anthony
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 9:21 PM Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks, David -- for the reply and for sharing the video. I hope it will
>>> be useful.
>>>
>>> I've always thought of the Burkean parlor as a metaphorical place where
>>> ideas get exchanged, sometimes combatively, sometimes while doing dishes or
>>> tidying up, but more ideally (in my hopes) via productive conversation or
>>> productive dialectic.  But really, it wasn't really necessary for me to
>>> include the Burke quote at all, as the proper emphasis should have been on
>>> Nikolai's contributions.
>>>
>>> But I'm glad I did mention Burke's parlor, in that it sparked some
>>> interesting replies, including your thought-provoking allusion to
>>> Halliday.  I like that you bring him up often!
>>>
>>> In fact . . . https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx3H5uAZIoI__;!!Mih3wA!RHx1axijAuRzPI0wROfpqBO5ilSx-pwihdMoGjfPbrdt2QqsTwI6dGu8nxmP5dc9gWIpPQ$ 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx3H5uAZIoI__;!!Mih3wA!R1tuEz28TKCRX-z854TQcafClzwE-T5yfevnoxkw5DRwjpbz239rg0baB8eFK_S3c1OFQQ$>
>>> (What do you say? Can this be addressed to lay people - teachers especially
>>> - in like 3-5 minutes or so?)
>>>
>>> Thank you again,
>>>
>>> Anthony
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 8:19 AM David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anthony--
>>>>
>>>> I shared it with my ex-grad. (I am marrying her in the fall--I mean,
>>>> I'm marrying her to somebody else; when you are a professor in Korea, you
>>>> are often called on to perform the actual ceremony, so long as you haven't
>>>> had too many marriages of your own). She is doing a PhD in early years at
>>>> the University of Regina in Canada, and she has the usual problem: you
>>>> can't just ask questions about what the kids are thinking or saying or even
>>>> doing, because the thing you are interested in studying isn't all there
>>>> yet. Her super, selected on the same basis as we select people for wedding
>>>> ceremonies here in Korea, is a successful questionnaire-and-survey person
>>>> and doesn't see this is a problem.
>>>>
>>>> I think Burke's metaphor is really like studying a narwhal by analogy
>>>> with a unicorn, or a dinosaur as a kind of Chinese dragon. Burke wants us
>>>> to understand something real and concrete like the relationship between lit
>>>> and crit simply by thinking of something completely unreal and
>>>> impossible--a kind of academic pugilism where there is neither beginning
>>>> nor end and nothing is at stake but "tenor". It's interesting that he uses
>>>> the word "tenor" to describe seizing the tenets of an argument by
>>>> grabbing one side or another rather than grasping the issue as a process
>>>> from beginning to end. "Tenor" is the term Halliday uses to mean the
>>>> interpersonal back-and-forth of a context as opposed to its
>>>> representational or textual qualities.
>>>>
>>>> But doesn't Burke's metaphor really preclude what Nikolai describes so
>>>> well in his video? As Nikolai says, you gotta start BEFORE the process is
>>>> underway if you want to understand the process as a whole, you need to
>>>> grasp it causally and dynamically and not just grab who's in
>>>> and out; you need to consider the process as becoming something and not
>>>> just  being and being and being. All three of these conditions are
>>>> explicitly denied by the Burkean parlor metaphor, aren't they? .
>>>>
>>>> David Kellogg
>>>> Sangmyung University
>>>>
>>>> New Article: Ruqaiya Hasan, in memoriam: A manual and a manifesto.
>>>> Outlines, Spring 2020
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!RHx1axijAuRzPI0wROfpqBO5ilSx-pwihdMoGjfPbrdt2QqsTwI6dGu8nxmP5deYiralIw$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tidsskrift.dk/outlines/article/view/116238__;!!Mih3wA!Ud9nP0Wfd21IyOKhvifoZ9EITAift85La2K_iFgYk5BCRbGVioK-XSnKy-ifYICj5d1_yg$>
>>>> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: *L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological
>>>> Works* *Volume One: Foundations of Pedology*"
>>>>  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!RHx1axijAuRzPI0wROfpqBO5ilSx-pwihdMoGjfPbrdt2QqsTwI6dGu8nxmP5dfjWMnA5g$ 
>>>>
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Ud9nP0Wfd21IyOKhvifoZ9EITAift85La2K_iFgYk5BCRbGVioK-XSnKy-ifYICMY966cA$>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 12:35 AM Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In our 8th grade classroom, we have used Burke's (1941) "parlor"
>>>>> metaphor to support work on literary themes, argumentation, media analysis,
>>>>> role-playing, and class discussion:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Imagine that you enter a parlor. You come late. When you arrive,
>>>>>> others have long preceded you, and they are engaged in a heated
>>>>>> discussion, a discussion too heated for them to pause and tell you
>>>>>> exactly what it is about. In fact, the discussion had already begun
>>>>>> long before any of them got there, so that no one present is
>>>>>> qualified to retrace for you all the steps that had gone before. You
>>>>>> listen for a while, until you decide that you have caught the tenor
>>>>>> of the argument; then you put in your oar. Someone answers you; you
>>>>>> answer him; another comes to your defense; another aligns himself
>>>>>> against you, to either the embarrassment or gratification of your
>>>>>> opponent, depending upon the quality of your ally's assistance.
>>>>>> However, the discussion is interminable. The hour grows late, you
>>>>>> must depart. And you do depart, with the discussion still vigorously
>>>>>> in progress." Kenneth Burke, *The Philosophy of Literary Form*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In 1996, Russell Hunt, Gordon Wells, and others had an interesting
>>>>> xmca exchange on the topic of "Burke's Parlor," including Hunt's
>>>>> observation that "Gordon's narrative, which I think I prefer to Burke's,
>>>>> leaves out the agnostic character of the discussion: in Burke, writing in
>>>>> 1941, the assumption was that the conversation HAD to be a contest."  I
>>>>> don't think it does.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whether contest, dialogue, dialectic, or mere background noise, I hope
>>>>> this latest conversational turn is a contribution of value:
>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEK3JV1Ux___;!!Mih3wA!RHx1axijAuRzPI0wROfpqBO5ilSx-pwihdMoGjfPbrdt2QqsTwI6dGu8nxmP5ddhajiu2w$ 
>>>>> 5WEs1bAjoH_AXCxFMVAF6bF
>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEK3JV1Ux_5WEs1bAjoH_AXCxFMVAF6bF__;!!Mih3wA!S7ys-XdCYKh3HU5OKRoNJuEgk62EmIhOla1afIpa9D1qrvWwtfoGFtCYeUPWbash32dSWA$>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As a non-expert, I have been trying to learn in public, and I can
>>>>> promise that your current or future students will find this helpful. If
>>>>> this statement sounds reasonable, please feel free to share.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>
>>>>> Anthony
>>>>>
>>>>> P.S. The two videos in the playlist are on the longer side; there was
>>>>> no way around that.
>>>>> While not a substitute, this collection of 2-3 minute snippets does
>>>>> contain a fair amount of overlap: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube__;!!Mih3wA!RHx1axijAuRzPI0wROfpqBO5ilSx-pwihdMoGjfPbrdt2QqsTwI6dGu8nxmP5ddIDneE1Q$ .
>>>>> com/playlist?list=PLEK3JV1Ux_5W2ZfG2I-J7prbfDUK_dIlo
>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEK3JV1Ux_5W2ZfG2I-J7prbfDUK_dIlo__;!!Mih3wA!S7ys-XdCYKh3HU5OKRoNJuEgk62EmIhOla1afIpa9D1qrvWwtfoGFtCYeUPWbat46QJmlQ$>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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