[Xmca-l] The perils of translation

Thu Aug 20 11:02:05 PDT 2020

Daived et al

What I sent was a Kozulin translation which I consider superior to that in
Mind in Society.
The piece you found sounds interesting, David. Missed the link.

The mistranslation of obuchenie contains an important lesson, over and
above its misinterpretation.
Its misinterpretation is deeply imbedded in the contrasting  terms --
learning instead of instruction.
Learning, at the time (remember the Pavlovian roots of American psychology
were particularly strong
in the 1950's-60's equaled development. Instruction  (in-struct-(ure)tips
the balance to emphasize teacher
control. When in-struction is coupled with qualitative developmental
shifts/phases/stages  (LSV) one arrives
at the idea that instruction can induce developmental change. And learning
is assumed to depend upon instruction.
Hence- Readers of the* Mind in Society* text are going to misinterpret
ideas such as "The zone of proximal development"
Hence- Seth could rightly criticized the translations and instruct readers
about the key features of Vygotsky's actual theory.

It is important, too, that key texts in Russian translated from English
mis-translate learning as development!
The problem is symmetrical .

Another key term in *Mind and Society  *that could have been better
translated.  If prefer Nick Veresov's way of translating
the terms social level and individual level based on the dramatic metaphor,
for example.

Thanks to the work of many many others we all have way more adequate
translations of way more materials than the
manuscripts for Mind and Society that i smuggled out of the Moscow back
when I didn't have much sense and Republicans
were anti Russian.

Mike

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 7:22 PM David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com> wrote:

> Anthony--
>
> What Mike sent is an article by Myra Barrs introducing a re-translation of
> a Chapter Six of 'Mind in Society' by Stephen Mitchell. That is, as Barrs
> says, based on Chapter One of "The Mental Development of the Child in the
> Process of Obuchenie", which is called (in my copy of the original Russian
> book, "The problem of obuchenie in mental development at school age." The
> footnote just says it was a manuscript written some time in 1933/1934.
>
> But the text you asked for is actually Chapter Three, which is called (in
> my volume) "The dynamics of mental development at school age and its link
> to obucheniem". That was the link that I sent you. You will find it's quite
> a different text--the stenogramme of a lecture that Vygotsky gave at the
> Bubnov Pedagogical Institute on the 23 of December in 1933. It includes a
> lot of stuff about IQ testing, and Vygotsky is talking about how the lower
> IQ kids seem to have a much larger ZPD (because of a ceiling effect on the
> higher IQ kids).
>
> Mike is quite diffident about the translation in Mind in Society, because
> of the way in which "obuchenie" is translated. Of course, there are places
> where Vygotsky clearly means teaching and not learning, and other places
> where he means teaching-learning. (Vygotsky actually has the same problem
> translating German into Russian, because he translates Kurt Goldstein's
> "lehrnen" to mean teaching when Goldstein obviously means learning!).
> . --
>
> David Kellogg
> Sangmyung University
>
> New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity:
> Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday,
> Hasan, and Vygotsky
>
> Some free e-prints today available at:
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!QQD0OqJA9WGpGsoSuEebqWKzKX7c6-VHIu8EUMNaK0NrOzRR0PlmpAYUlAEj2k-Z8BhCSg$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!Wi2DMuDsXyiWqge69T8kiZV5U3hHQF0orHDCZUZZzeGp2xTvMDwHirXk_Ab62pdXUPKDtg$>
>
> New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works
> Volume One: Foundations of Pedology"
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!QQD0OqJA9WGpGsoSuEebqWKzKX7c6-VHIu8EUMNaK0NrOzRR0PlmpAYUlAEj2k92sdeHZQ$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Wi2DMuDsXyiWqge69T8kiZV5U3hHQF0orHDCZUZZzeGp2xTvMDwHirXk_Ab62pcBYFGBLg$>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 10:56 AM Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Wow, Mike and David thank you very much -
>>
>> - for the reading material, for the hospitality, for the encouraging
>> words.
>>
>> And also for that great factoid about Steve and Boeing.
>>
>> Anthony
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 12:53 PM mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Is this what you are looking for, Anthony?
>>> Here is a good translation.
>>> Seth's article is super helpful in untangling misunderstandings. The
>>> translation of obuchenie in* Mind in Society*
>>> as learning is misleading, for reasons explained in the attached article
>>> I wrote several years ago about the problem.
>>> (the problem is alive and well in a field called "learning sciences"
>>> where instruction is a cipher and development
>>> is not the primary category).
>>>
>>> Your set of videos is a great resource.  And your use of the
>>> xlchc/xmca archives is just what was hoped for when
>>> we began the practices that have evolved into what one sees today. We
>>> have not heard from Steve for a long time,
>>> but he got his PH.D supported by participants in the discussion at this
>>> time. He is/was an assembly line work at
>>> Boeing at the time.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> PS - Now if we could collectively move from pseudoconcepts to few
>>> concepts and have the wits to know the difference
>>> it would be great!!  :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 8:50 AM Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Good afternoon,
>>>>
>>>> In a search for an article cited in S. Chaiklin's great "The zone of
>>>> proximal development in Vygotsky’s analysis of learning and
>>>>
>>>> instruction" (2003), I stumbled upon a post that I believe many here
>>>> will enjoy re-reading:
>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2002_11.dir/0156.html
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>>
>>>> Anthony
>>>>
>>>> P.S.  Here is the article I was searching for (in case anyone can help):
>>>>
>>>>    - Vygotsky, L. S. (1935a). Dinamika umstvennogo razvitiza
>>>>    shkol’nika v svjazi s obucheniem. In Umstvennoie razvitie detei v protsesse
>>>>    obuchenia (pp. 33-52). Moscow/Leningrad: Gosudarstvennoie
>>>>    Uchebno-pedagogicheskoie Izdatel’stvo.
>>>>
>>>> And the reference, in context:
>>>>
>>>>> "In one article, which as far as I know is neither translated nor
>>>>> readily
>>>>>
>>>>> available, Vygotsky (1935a) describes a set of experiments in which
>>>>> children are tested and
>>>>>
>>>>> identified to have a high or low IQ as well as a large or small zone
>>>>> (as determined by the kind of
>>>>>
>>>>> procedure described in the previous paragraph). Subsequent school
>>>>> success is determined, and it
>>>>>
>>>>> appears that the size of the zone of proximal development was more
>>>>> predictive than IQ. That is,
>>>>>
>>>>> children with a larger zone of proximal development (i.e., more
>>>>> maturing functions are currently
>>>>>
>>>>> available) had comparable intellectual development, regardless of IQ.
>>>>> Similarly, children with a
>>>>>
>>>>> smaller zone of proximal development had a comparable intellectual
>>>>> development, regardless of the
>>>>>
>>>>> initially measured IQ. In other words, the zone of proximal
>>>>> development gave a better indication for predicting/understanding future
>>>>> intellectual development than a measure of independent
>>>>>
>>>>> performance, where the explanation is that the greater number of
>>>>> maturing functions gives a child
>>>>>
>>>>> better opportunities to benefit from school instruction. A detailed
>>>>> summary of this article is found in
>>>>>
>>>>> van der Veer and Valsiner (1991, pp. 336-341)." (Chaiklin, 2003, p.
>>>>> 12-13).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> I[image: Angelus Novus]
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelus_Novus__;!!Mih3wA!VtNGVx3ivSCG5Sa1V-AME3LCIno6YKalCaK_Diy-ZA1wJXcIqtlyTzc8E2nF0EGrqu_KGg$>The
>>> Angel's View of History
>>>
>>> It is only in a social context that subjectivism and objectivism,
>>> spiritualism and materialism, activity and passivity cease to be
>>> antinomies, and thus cease to exist as such antinomies. The resolution of
>>> the theoretical contradictions is possible only through practical
>>> means, only through the practical energy of humans. (Marx, 1844).
>>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!QQD0OqJA9WGpGsoSuEebqWKzKX7c6-VHIu8EUMNaK0NrOzRR0PlmpAYUlAEj2k_npKbtdg$ 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VtNGVx3ivSCG5Sa1V-AME3LCIno6YKalCaK_Diy-ZA1wJXcIqtlyTzc8E2nF0EGQSoBIVw$>
>>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://re-generatingchat.com__;!!Mih3wA!VtNGVx3ivSCG5Sa1V-AME3LCIno6YKalCaK_Diy-ZA1wJXcIqtlyTzc8E2nF0EE7p0IRyQ$>
>>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu.
>>> Narrative history of LCHC:  lchcautobio.ucsd.edu.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
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