[Xmca-l] Re: "this remarkable list" (Gabosch, 2002)

Wed Aug 19 19:16:21 PDT 2020

Anthony--

What Mike sent is an article by Myra Barrs introducing a re-translation of
a Chapter Six of 'Mind in Society' by Stephen Mitchell. That is, as Barrs
says, based on Chapter One of "The Mental Development of the Child in the
Process of Obuchenie", which is called (in my copy of the original Russian
book, "The problem of obuchenie in mental development at school age." The
footnote just says it was a manuscript written some time in 1933/1934.

But the text you asked for is actually Chapter Three, which is called (in
my volume) "The dynamics of mental development at school age and its link
to obucheniem". That was the link that I sent you. You will find it's quite
a different text--the stenogramme of a lecture that Vygotsky gave at the
Bubnov Pedagogical Institute on the 23 of December in 1933. It includes a
lot of stuff about IQ testing, and Vygotsky is talking about how the lower
IQ kids seem to have a much larger ZPD (because of a ceiling effect on the
higher IQ kids).

Mike is quite diffident about the translation in Mind in Society, because
of the way in which "obuchenie" is translated. Of course, there are places
where Vygotsky clearly means teaching and not learning, and other places
where he means teaching-learning. (Vygotsky actually has the same problem
translating German into Russian, because he translates Kurt Goldstein's
"lehrnen" to mean teaching when Goldstein obviously means learning!).
. --

David Kellogg
Sangmyung University

New article in Mind, Culture, and Activity:
Realizations: non-causal but real relationships in and between Halliday,
Hasan, and Vygotsky

Some free e-prints today available at:
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/Y8YHS3SRW42VXPTVY2Z6/full?target=10.1080*10749039.2020.1806329__;Lw!!Mih3wA!Wi2DMuDsXyiWqge69T8kiZV5U3hHQF0orHDCZUZZzeGp2xTvMDwHirXk_Ab62pdXUPKDtg$ 

New Translation with Nikolai Veresov: L.S. Vygotsky's Pedological Works
Volume One: Foundations of Pedology"
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9789811505270__;!!Mih3wA!Wi2DMuDsXyiWqge69T8kiZV5U3hHQF0orHDCZUZZzeGp2xTvMDwHirXk_Ab62pcBYFGBLg$ 

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 10:56 AM Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Wow, Mike and David thank you very much -
>
> - for the reading material, for the hospitality, for the encouraging words.
>
> And also for that great factoid about Steve and Boeing.
>
> Anthony
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 12:53 PM mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
>> Is this what you are looking for, Anthony?
>> Here is a good translation.
>> Seth's article is super helpful in untangling misunderstandings. The
>> translation of obuchenie in* Mind in Society*
>> as learning is misleading, for reasons explained in the attached article
>> I wrote several years ago about the problem.
>> (the problem is alive and well in a field called "learning sciences"
>> where instruction is a cipher and development
>> is not the primary category).
>>
>> Your set of videos is a great resource.  And your use of the
>> xlchc/xmca archives is just what was hoped for when
>> we began the practices that have evolved into what one sees today. We
>> have not heard from Steve for a long time,
>> but he got his PH.D supported by participants in the discussion at this
>> time. He is/was an assembly line work at
>> Boeing at the time.
>>
>> Mike
>> PS - Now if we could collectively move from pseudoconcepts to few
>> concepts and have the wits to know the difference
>> it would be great!!  :-)
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 8:50 AM Anthony Barra <anthonymbarra@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Good afternoon,
>>>
>>> In a search for an article cited in S. Chaiklin's great "The zone of
>>> proximal development in Vygotsky’s analysis of learning and instruction"
>>> (2003), I stumbled upon a post that I believe many here will enjoy
>>> re-reading:
>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2002_11.dir/0156.html
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>>
>>> Anthony
>>>
>>> P.S.  Here is the article I was searching for (in case anyone can help):
>>>
>>>    - Vygotsky, L. S. (1935a). Dinamika umstvennogo razvitiza shkol’nika
>>>    v svjazi s obucheniem. In Umstvennoie razvitie detei v protsesse obuchenia
>>>    (pp. 33-52). Moscow/Leningrad: Gosudarstvennoie Uchebno-pedagogicheskoie
>>>    Izdatel’stvo.
>>>
>>> And the reference, in context:
>>>
>>>> "In one article, which as far as I know is neither translated nor
>>>> readily available, Vygotsky (1935a) describes a set of experiments in which
>>>> children are tested and identified to have a high or low IQ as well as a
>>>> large or small zone (as determined by the kind of procedure described in
>>>> the previous paragraph). Subsequent school success is determined, and it
>>>> appears that the size of the zone of proximal development was more
>>>> predictive than IQ. That is, children with a larger zone of proximal
>>>> development (i.e., more maturing functions are currently available) had
>>>> comparable intellectual development, regardless of IQ. Similarly, children
>>>> with a smaller zone of proximal development had a comparable intellectual
>>>> development, regardless of the initially measured IQ. In other words, the
>>>> zone of proximal development gave a better indication for
>>>> predicting/understanding future intellectual development than a measure of
>>>> independent performance, where the explanation is that the greater number
>>>> of maturing functions gives a child better opportunities to benefit from
>>>> school instruction. A detailed summary of this article is found in van der
>>>> Veer and Valsiner (1991, pp. 336-341)." (Chaiklin, 2003, p. 12-13).
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> I[image: Angelus Novus]
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelus_Novus__;!!Mih3wA!VtNGVx3ivSCG5Sa1V-AME3LCIno6YKalCaK_Diy-ZA1wJXcIqtlyTzc8E2nF0EGrqu_KGg$>The
>> Angel's View of History
>>
>> It is only in a social context that subjectivism and objectivism,
>> spiritualism and materialism, activity and passivity cease to be
>> antinomies, and thus cease to exist as such antinomies. The resolution of
>> the theoretical contradictions is possible only through practical means,
>> only through the practical energy of humans. (Marx, 1844).
>> Cultural Praxis Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!Wi2DMuDsXyiWqge69T8kiZV5U3hHQF0orHDCZUZZzeGp2xTvMDwHirXk_Ab62pfikXHGuw$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://culturalpraxis.net__;!!Mih3wA!VtNGVx3ivSCG5Sa1V-AME3LCIno6YKalCaK_Diy-ZA1wJXcIqtlyTzc8E2nF0EGQSoBIVw$>
>> Re-generating CHAT Website: re-generatingchat.com
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://re-generatingchat.com__;!!Mih3wA!VtNGVx3ivSCG5Sa1V-AME3LCIno6YKalCaK_Diy-ZA1wJXcIqtlyTzc8E2nF0EE7p0IRyQ$>
>> Archival resources website: lchc.ucsd.edu.
>> Narrative history of LCHC:  lchcautobio.ucsd.edu.
>>
>>
>>
>>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.ucsd.edu/pipermail/xmca-l/attachments/20200820/1c085f1e/attachment.html 