[Xmca-l] Re: History of Explicit and Implicit Knowledge

Fri Jun 14 11:31:29 PDT 2019

Km/And this where I check my Western bias to the individual in my
theoretical thinking.

 Placing the individual abouve the social... but as I study these network
learning spaces those where one's goals align to shared values of a space
both the person and space grow in their ability to change the outside
forces that push back on will

I guess it always easier to wiggle when folks move to the same beat. Wonder
if their are predixtable patterns measured in earthworm casings.

On Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 2:25 PM mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:

> So agency is wiggle room (discoordination?) *plus ...*
> Google translate tell me that the phrase "people have agency" is
> translated as  люди имеют свободу действий (people possess freedom of
> action).
>
> which brings us to freedom and action as Vygotskian concepts.
>
> And if will is the ability to control oneself from the outside, but the
> outside is that very same social
> world that enabled you to use what they provided to control yourself, what
> agency do "you"
> have?  Wiggle room and.....
>
> mike
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 10:56 AM Greg Mcverry <jgregmcverry@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Can the earthworms consider the consequences of wiggiling this way or
>> that and predicting the consequences of these choices or do they follow an
>> almost programmatic biological following. If so is this agency and still
>> learning in emodoed ways?
>>
>> I do keep a worm box those worms are more than cared for but not free?
>> Are they missing agency?
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 1:05 PM mike cole <mcole@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> The same distinction can be found usefully in the work of Giyoo Hatano
>>> which you might find useful,Greg. A distinction is found in Wright's book
>>> on Envisioning Real Utopias between ideology
>>> and culture.
>>>
>>> Odd query:  Earth worms have an enormous effect on their environments
>>> and hence ours.
>>> Earth worms could not do this if they did not have "wiggle room." Would
>>> you attribute the
>>> tunnels and soil transformation of earth worms to them "having" agency?
>>>
>>> mike
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 8:20 AM Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think you'd need to qualify that statement, Peter, for it to be
>>>> correct.
>>>>
>>>> The use of the phrase "involuntary" in P. I. Zinchenko's work pertains
>>>> to "without volition" rather than "against one's volition".
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Huw
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 15:27, Peter Feigenbaum [Staff] <
>>>> pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Greg,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure about implicit *knowledge*, but the earliest studies on
>>>>> implicit *learning* were conducted by Arthur Reber in the 1960s. I had the
>>>>> good fortune of being a graduate student at CUNY Graduate Center in
>>>>> Developmental Psychology in the 1980s when Arthur was there as a visiting
>>>>> scholar. He was studying implicit learning of *grammar* by adults and
>>>>> children. What struck me about the phenomenon (then and now) is that
>>>>> subjects in experiments are unaware that they are engaged in implicit
>>>>> learning - and when asked to think about the task they are performing while
>>>>> they are learning to infer patterns implicitly, their performance
>>>>> deteriorates significantly. It would seem that implicit and explicit
>>>>> learning are activities that conflict with each other.
>>>>>
>>>>> This info may not be at all relevant to your question, but I thought I
>>>>> should mention it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Peter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 7:26 AM Greg Mcverry <jgregmcverry@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you all, excatly what I am looking for. This idea of applying
>>>>>> implicit and explicit knowledge to D, P, and C makes total sense.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will be rejecting much as well but it is the langauge of my
>>>>>> audience so I wanted to grasp the origin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am also trying to track how my ideas get captured and transformed
>>>>>> here:
>>>>>> https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/06/14/using-my-commonplace-book-to-write-an-article
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com_2019_06_14_using-2Dmy-2Dcommonplace-2Dbook-2Dto-2Dwrite-2Dan-2Darticle&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=sh86tsuk_K_vdn8cktM6VC_LRH3rfz5b4e1k6pcjkRs&s=5NkpeiWUmHvx6EYKyYLIFUpz1dCqfsmfYPqFhJ7OUqQ&e=>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With your permission I would like to quote your emails in the same
>>>>>> post.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 6:40 AM David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Keith Johnson, one of the professors on my MA at University of
>>>>>>> Essex,used the distinction between implicit and explicit on the one hand,
>>>>>>> and the J.R. Anderson model of DECPRO, PRODEC on the other. He didn't say
>>>>>>> anything about conditional knowledge, but from Anderson I gather it's
>>>>>>> something to do with the passive reception/active production distinction
>>>>>>> (that we Halllidayans reject).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I never heard him use both of them together, in a matrix, so that
>>>>>>> there was implicit and explicit declarative knowledge, implicit and
>>>>>>> explicit procedural knowledge, and implicit and explicit conditional
>>>>>>> knowledge. But Keith was very GRAMMATICAL. It seems to me that if you apply
>>>>>>> it to PHONOLOGY, there isn't any reason we can't talk about implicit and
>>>>>>> explicit declarative knowledge (knowing THAT a sound is a /d/ and not a /t/
>>>>>>> implicitly and being able to express that idea in phonological terms)
>>>>>>> and it is also possible to talk about implicit and explicit procedural
>>>>>>> knowledge (knowing HOW to distinguish them without thinking about it, and
>>>>>>> knowing HOW they are distinguished by the movements of the articulators). I
>>>>>>> don't see any reason in principle why you couldn't do the same thing with
>>>>>>> conditional knowledge either, although I'm not really sure that all these
>>>>>>> distinctions are relevant to teaching.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All of this, and a lot more, in his 19i96 book Skill Learning and
>>>>>>> Language Teaching (Blackwell).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David Kellogg
>>>>>>> Sangmyung University
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> New Article:
>>>>>>> Han Hee Jeung & David Kellogg (2019): A story without SELF:
>>>>>>> Vygotsky’s
>>>>>>> pedology, Bruner’s constructivism and Halliday’s construalism in
>>>>>>> understanding narratives by
>>>>>>> Korean children, Language and Education, DOI:
>>>>>>> 10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663
>>>>>>> To link to this article:
>>>>>>> https://doi.org/10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__doi.org_10.1080_09500782.2019.1582663&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=sh86tsuk_K_vdn8cktM6VC_LRH3rfz5b4e1k6pcjkRs&s=Z_PGe9VQYPqVUGV8dxx-MsXNU0iYmNIvu6Y-vSRQZrg&e=>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some e-prints available at:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK/full?target=10.1080/09500782.2019.1582663
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.tandfonline.com_eprint_KHRxrQ4n45t9N2ZHZhQK_full-3Ftarget-3D10.1080_09500782.2019.1582663&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=sh86tsuk_K_vdn8cktM6VC_LRH3rfz5b4e1k6pcjkRs&s=dlTSEQSXtCZwen38XmBQsCFMst6NxbENTUsHRRNKUFs&e=>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All of this is in his 1996 book Skill Learning and Language Teaching
>>>>>>> (Blackwell).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 9:50 AM Greg Mcverry <jgregmcverry@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am carrying on my quest to rethink cognitive apprenticeships into
>>>>>>>> agentive apprenticeships for my work around innovation systems:
>>>>>>>> https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2019/03/07/my-fork-of-synea-into-a-saint
>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com_2019_03_07_my-2Dfork-2Dof-2Dsynea-2Dinto-2Da-2Dsaint&d=DwMFaQ&c=aqMfXOEvEJQh2iQMCb7Wy8l0sPnURkcqADc2guUW8IM&r=mXj3yhpYNklTxyN3KioIJ0ECmPHilpf4N2p9PBMATWs&m=sh86tsuk_K_vdn8cktM6VC_LRH3rfz5b4e1k6pcjkRs&s=JxkaETsmrQCQNCIUZxTIcy_dtBqjaE6CMj2s7zvH80E&e=>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Agentive apprenticeships defer more in centering the agency and
>>>>>>>> choice in the learner in a network of shared interest where the space and
>>>>>>>> tools teach much as any person.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You may recall I originally asked for ideas around knowledge
>>>>>>>> brokering as it did not sit well with me. I decided to go with Knowledge
>>>>>>>> Knitting as my metaphor. It is used frequently in the OER Community and
>>>>>>>> amongst under represented scholars and if I can get the pictures out of my
>>>>>>>> head and into words it will make sense.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But I am trying to chase down when the distinction between explicit
>>>>>>>> and implicit knowledge began. It weaves through all apprenticeship research
>>>>>>>> up through and including Gee's work on Affinity Spaces.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am more trained in the cognitive narrative that dominates reading
>>>>>>>> instruction today of declarative, procedural, and conditional knowledge.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Two questions:
>>>>>>>> -When did the distinction between implicit and explicit knowledge
>>>>>>>> begin?
>>>>>>>> -Are you aware of works that describe knowing in both implicit and
>>>>>>>> explicit and in declarative, procedural, and conditional knowledge.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> J. Gregory McVerry, PhD
>>>>>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>>>>>> Southern Connecticut State University
>>>>>>>> twitter: jgmac1106
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> J. Gregory McVerry, PhD
>>>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>>>> Southern Connecticut State University
>>>>>> twitter: jgmac1106
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Peter Feigenbaum, Ph.D.
>>>>> Director,
>>>>> Office of Institutional Research
>>>>> <https://www.fordham.edu/info/24303/institutional_research>
>>>>> Fordham University
>>>>> Thebaud Hall-202
>>>>> Bronx, NY 10458
>>>>>
>>>>> Phone: (718) 817-2243
>>>>> Fax: (718) 817-3817
>>>>> email: pfeigenbaum@fordham.edu
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> The struggle of (hu)mans against power is the struggle of memory against
>>> forgetting.
>>> ― Milan Kundera (slightly edited)
>>>
>>
>
> --
> The struggle of (hu)mans against power is the struggle of memory against
> forgetting.
> ― Milan Kundera (slightly edited)
>
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