[Xmca-l] Re: Hegel on Action
Andy Blunden
ablunden@mira.net
Sat Jul 15 09:41:50 PDT 2017
I don't see anything moving towards closure, Larry.
a
------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Blunden
http://home.mira.net/~andy
http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
On 16/07/2017 2:33 AM, Larry Purss wrote:
>
> Andy,
>
> (each) scientific theory generates concepts that form a
> “system”.
>
> These various scientific systems emerge within particular
> social practices / activities within historicity.
>
> Andy is the ideal (as If) scientific system of practical
> activity moving towards closure?
>
> Each system differentiating from (each) other scientific
> “system” which ideally has each scientific system moving
> towards different types of closures? This being the
> process of systematic reification.
>
> If I am being somewhat clear on your perspective, the
> theme of science projects tending towards “closure” is
> inherent in creating scientific systems as a particular
> discursive practical activity (until crisis moments)
>
> To become aware of this activity allows Us to chart the
> various (world-views) as an encyclopedia of world-views
> generated through societal activities guiding our actions.
>
> This seems to leave open (values) of which world-views are
> better modes of activity. The (should) or (perhaps) AS IF
> realm of world-views as more or less desirable projects.
>
> The theme of (motivation) and (crisis) in the background
>
> Sent from Mail
> <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
> *From: *Andy Blunden <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
> *Sent: *July 15, 2017 8:00 AM
> *To: *eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> <mailto:xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu>
> *Subject: *[Xmca-l] Re: Hegel on Action
>
> My article only goes to issues like "resides both within and
>
> outside the mind" in presenting the problem, the dead end,
>
> which Hegel found a way out of. The concepts of mind and
>
> body are of course which legitimate concepts, and Hegel
>
> himself refers to them in this way in one of the quotes in
>
> my article. But *they are not fundamental concepts* for me
>
> or for Hegel. Further, "within and outside the mind" implies
>
> "two substances", i.e., Cartesian dualism, which you have to
>
> extract yourself from to make sense of Hegel or my article.
>
> "My understanding of 'the material' is both interpretative
>
> and observable." I don't quite get that, though don't
>
> trouble about that. Ontological claims, such as those in the
>
> first few paragraphs of my article have to be taken *just as
>
> they are*. They are nothing to do with theories of physics
>
> or theories of psychology.
>
> Yes, every writer gives you specific insights which are
>
> available from their point of view. And that is not limited
>
> to philosophy - art, drama, literature, ... all give us
>
> insights of their own. But sciences are such that concepts
>
> form a system; in each scientific theory all the concepts
>
> (if the theory is well constructed) fit together, and *will
>
> be incompatible with* the concepts (and terminology) of
>
> other theories. To you, all these theories are aspects of
>
> semiotics. But neither Saussure not Vygotsky were
>
> semioticians, so there is a danger in absorbing their ideas
>
> into what, *for them*, is an incompatible frame. You
>
> probably speak 6 languages, James, but if you jumble up the
>
> words of 6 languages in one sentence it is going to be junk.
>
> But you can still enjoy the cognitive and cultural benefits
>
> of the world views captured in 6 languages.
>
> Andy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Andy Blunden
>
> http://home.mira.net/~andy
>
> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>
>
> On 16/07/2017 12:26 AM, James Ma wrote:
>
> > Andy, apologies for my digression from your point. The
>
> > sign resides both within and outside the mind - this is my
>
> > understanding from reading Peirce. Somehow the effect of
>
> > your article (I'm still reading it) on me is that it makes
>
> > me think more and more into Peirce...
>
> >
>
> > My understanding of "the material" is both interpretative
>
> > and observable.
>
> >
>
> > Although I read Peirce and Vygotsky, the
>
> > Saussurean/Hallidayan imagery is always present in my mind
>
> > (due to a linguistics background). Anyway, I feel these
>
> > thinkers sit together quite comfortably - all their ideas
>
> > are complementary - and can be distilled into one word:
>
> > semiotics.
>
> >
>
> > James
>
> >
>
> > /_____________________________________/
>
> >
>
> > */James Ma/*///https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > On 15 July 2017 at 13:28, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > James, I think you're using "material" in some
>
> > specific sense which is unknown to me. It seems to me
>
> > to be something to do with body language as opposed to
>
> > speech, maybe practical consciousness rather than
>
> > discursive consciousness. "Material" understood as
>
> > meaning "made of matter" would simply be the opposite
>
> > of "in my imagination". I find it difficult to get my
>
> > head around the idea of a "sign in the mind" and if
>
> > "mind" was some place other than the material world
>
> > where a sign could be located. I'm sure what you are
>
> > talking about is perfectly good, but I can't relate it
>
> > to the absolutely basic ontological issue which you
>
> > raised out of my paper about action.
>
> >
>
> > Andy
>
> >
>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > Andy Blunden
>
> > http://home.mira.net/~andy
> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
>
> >
> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
>
> >
>
> > On 15/07/2017 8:15 PM, James Ma wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Thanks for such helpful explanation, Andy.
>
> > Regarding my last question, I mean one's feeling
>
> > or sense perception involved in social practice in
>
> > a social context possesses the material quality of
>
> > a psychic image (a sign in the mind). This
>
> > material quality can be one's facial expression or
>
> > bodily movement connected with a particular feeling.
>
> >
>
> > James
>
> >
>
> > /_____________________________________/
>
> >
>
> > */James
>
> > Ma/*///https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/
>
> > <https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > On 15 July 2017 at 09:42, Andy Blunden
>
> > <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > James, the meaning for words such as
>
> > "material" and to
>
> > a lesser extent the other words in your
>
> > message have
>
> > meanings which are extremely context (or
>
> > discourse)
>
> > dependent. The Stanford Encyclopaedia of
>
> > Philosophy
>
> > doesn't have a definition of Matter,
>
> > considering it
>
> > only in relation to Form, but their
> definition of
>
> > Substance will do the trick. I follow Lenin and
>
> > Vygotsky in my understanding of matter. (Hegel
>
> > didn't
>
> > like to use the word, because he took it as
>
> > too linked
>
> > to Atomism. Marx used "material" in a very
>
> > specific
>
> > way to do with reproduction of the means of
> life.)
>
> >
>
> > As to the philosophical meaning of "matter" I
>
> > think I
>
> > said it in the paper as succinctly as
> possible. If
>
> > it's in the mind then it is not material. I
>
> > can't make
>
> > sense of your last question.
>
> >
>
> > Andy
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > Andy Blunden
>
> > http://home.mira.net/~andy
>
> > <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
>
> > <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
>
> >
> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
>
> >
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>
>
> >
>
> > On 15/07/2017 6:28 PM, James Ma wrote:
>
> >
>
> > This is interesting to me, Andy. Do you
>
> > rule out
>
> > anything that has material quality but is
>
> > actually
>
> > associated with a mental sign (a sign in
>
> > the mind,
>
> > as Peirce would say)? Do you consider social
>
> > practice (you mentioned earlier) to be
>
> > tinted with
>
> > the intrapsychological within oneself?
>
> >
>
> > James
>
> >
>
> > /_____________________________________/
>
> >
>
> > */James
>
> >
>
> > Ma/*///https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/
>
> > <https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/>
>
> > <https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/
>
> > <https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa/>>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > On 15 July 2017 at 07:11, Andy Blunden
>
> > <ablunden@mira.net
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > No, it would be spreading confusion,
> Greg.
>
> >
>
> > "Matter" in this context is everything
>
> > outside
>
> > of my
>
> > consciousness. "Activity" in this
>
> > context is
>
> > human,
>
> > social practice. Moving attention to the
>
> > sub-atomic
>
> > level, a field where we have no common
>
> > sense,
>
> > sensuous
>
> > knowledge, does not help.
>
> >
>
> > Andy
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > Andy Blunden
>
> > http://home.mira.net/~andy
>
> > <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
>
> > <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
>
> > <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
>
> >
> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
>
> >
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>
>
> >
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
>
> >
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>>
>
> >
>
> > On 15/07/2017 2:31 PM, Greg Thompson
>
> > wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Andy,
>
> > Just musing here but I'm
> wondering if
>
> > "matter" is
>
> > anything more than activity,
>
> > particularly when
>
> > considered at the sub-atomic level.
>
> > At that level, matter seems a
> lot more
>
> > like the
>
> > holding of relations in some
>
> > activity (not so
>
> > different from the Notion?).
>
> > Or would that be taking things too
>
> > far?
>
> > -greg
>
> >
>
> > On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 10:12 PM,
>
> > Andy Blunden
>
> > <ablunden@mira.net
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net
>
> > <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>>>> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Anyone who got interested in
> that
>
> > material about
>
> > "Hegel on Action", here is my
>
> > contribution.
>
> >
>
> > https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
>
> > <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>
>
> >
>
> > <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
>
> > <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>>
>
> >
>
> > <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
>
> > <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>
>
> >
>
> > <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
>
> > <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>>>
>
> >
>
> > <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
>
> > <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>
>
> >
>
> > <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
>
> > <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>>
>
> >
>
> > <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
>
> > <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>
>
> >
>
> > <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action
>
> > <https://www.academia.edu/33887830/Hegel_on_Action>>>>
>
> >
>
> > Andy
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> >
>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > Andy Blunden
>
> > http://home.mira.net/~andy
>
> > <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
>
> > <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
>
> > <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
>
> > <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy>
>
> >
> http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
>
> >
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>
>
> >
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
>
> >
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>>
>
> >
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
>
> >
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>
>
> >
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>
>
> >
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making
>
> >
> <http://www.brill.com/products/book/origins-collective-decision-making>>>>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -- Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>
> > Assistant Professor
>
> > Department of Anthropology
>
> > 880 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>
> > Brigham Young University
>
> > Provo, UT 84602
>
> > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>
> > <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>
>
> > <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>
> > <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>>
>
> >
>
> > <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>
> > <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>
>
> > <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>
> > <http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>>>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
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