[Xmca-l] Re: Neoformation and developmental change: Issue 4 article for discussion

Sun Dec 17 07:26:05 PST 2017

Hello Huw, Michael and Peter, many thanks for your messages.

If meaning is nothing, then all the systems of signification are nothing -
culture, nothing; history, nothing...... I'm much influenced by Saussure
and Halliday because of my background (e.g. for Halliday, meaning is
doing). My interest has long been language, meaning and consciousness -
these three words can be further distilled into one single word "semiotic"
- which I carry with me wherever I go 🤗🤔😉

James
PS Readings Peter and Michael suggested sound really interesting and I'm
going to read. Thank you.

On 17 December 2017 at 13:36, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> wrote:

> James,
>
> Possibly you are conflating a process of reflection with that of a
> (hypothetical) temporal perceptual-rational difference, i.e. that your
> meaning derived from experience is a reflected-upon experience. Also, with
> respect to the equating of "experience of experience" with consciousness,
> this seems to me to be more appropriately related to self-consciousness --
> I trust that's helpful.
>
> Your 3 points re DM assumptions seem reasonable to me, and I am equally
> bemused about the university cultures you allude to here (and other
> emails), although I would say they are not so simple, especially if one is
> looking for theoretical rigour or merely discussion.
>
> Best,
> Huw
>
> On 17 December 2017 at 11:39, James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello Michael, for some reason I missed out your message; now I've read
> it
> > and your article too. You might still disagree with me, but this is how I
> > see it through the lens of materialist dialectics:
> >
> >
> > Experience as perceptual understanding precedes meaning as rational
> > understanding,
> > with the latter not only bearing the heritage of but also reaching a
> > sublimation of the former. Thus, there is neither experience-less meaning
> > nor meaning-less experience, and hence the defining of consciousness as
> the
> > experience of experiences is to go hand in hand with the defining of
> > consciousness as the meaning of meanings.
> >
> >
> > James
> >
> >
> > *_____________________________________*
> >
> > *James Ma*  *https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa
> > <https://oxford.academia.edu/JamesMa>   *
> >
> >
> > On 14 December 2017 at 22:54, Wolff-Michael Roth <
> > wolffmichael.roth@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi James, it looks like you did not read my message or my message did
> not
> > > come through. For Vygotsky, consciousness is experience of experience,
> > not
> > > meaning of meaning. The "inner contradictions" are not logical ones,
> like
> > > your talk about the mental suggests. They exist because activity theory
> > > looks at living phenomena, which, because in time and producing time,
> > > inherently contain differences... The smallest unit of movement still
> is
> > > movement, and within it, there is change, so that the different parts
> are
> > > not the same but themselves in movement. Michael
> > >
> > >
> > > Wolff-Michael Roth, Lansdowne Professor
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --------------------
> > > Applied Cognitive Science
> > > MacLaurin Building A567
> > > University of Victoria
> > > Victoria, BC, V8P 5C2
> > > http://web.uvic.ca/~mroth <http://education2.uvic.ca/faculty/mroth/>
> > >
> > > New book: *The Mathematics of Mathematics
> > > <https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/new-
> > > directions-in-mathematics-and-science-education/the-
> > > mathematics-of-mathematics/>*
> > >
> > > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 2:45 PM, James Ma <jamesma320@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > David's point that consciousness is the meaning of meaning suits me
> > well
> > > > and I'd like to extend a bit, referring to social science research in
> > > > general as well as neoformation in materialist dialectics.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I see consciousness as a nexus through which mental activity takes
> > place,
> > > > i.e. it is where mental content is enlivened (animated) or more to
> the
> > > > point "semiotised" in that it is predominantly made up of signs (or
> > > > "psychic images" as Jung would say) and their likeness. This brings
> > into
> > > > focus the relationship between signs and their likeness - such
> > > relationship
> > > > manifests itself as the meaning of meaning that is ever intentional
> > > > (wilful), interpretative (hence subjective) and situational (tied to
> > > given
> > > > social, cultural and historical contexts).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Premised on this, in social science research, the researcher's
> > > > self-function as instrument for research is arguably to be first and
> > > > foremost recognised. The profundity of ethics is thus concerned with
> > > people
> > > > and knowledge. Here, "people" refers to not only those you are
> studying
> > > but
> > > > also those who are conducting the study; "knowledge" contains the
> > notion
> > > > that by doing research you make a claim to knowledge in terms of how
> > you
> > > > see what you see and why. The very purpose of social science research
> > is
> > > > thus not to offer a definitive answer to a big question but rather to
> > > > induct other people into your way of thinking and knowing. In this
> > sense,
> > > > social science research is by nature subjective, self-evident and
> > > > insusceptible of final conclusions - to which the *ad infinitum* of
> > > > Peircean semiosis applies.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Regarding neoformation, the transformation of quantity into quality
> > > occurs
> > > > when the meaning of meaning undergoes reconstitution or
> reconstruction
> > > > within the individual, as in the case of Leandro in Roth's article.
> > > > Importantly, internal contradictions within an individual precipitate
> > > > neoformation as a qualitative change, that is, instead of knowing, he
> > is
> > > > reconstituting or reconstructing the meaning of meaning instead of
> > > knowing
> > > > it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > James
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 13 December 2017 at 11:08, David Kellogg <dkellogg60@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Alfredo:
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, I think there are three threads we can twist together.
> > > > >
> > > > > a) Do adults develop? This is one of the major issues that divided
> > > > Vygotsky
> > > > > from the "psycho-technicians" of his time (e.g. Isaac Spielrein).
> > > > Vygotsky
> > > > > was consistent: the child is not a short adult, and the adult is
> not
> > a
> > > > > senile child, so child development cannot be seen as a kind of
> dress
> > > > > rehearsal for adult development, nor can adult development be seen
> as
> > > > > continuing child development by other means: there is a qualitative
> > > > > difference between the adolescent and the young adult that does not
> > > exist
> > > > > even between the schoolchild and the adolescent.
> > > > >
> > > > > b) Did Vygotsky ever rise to the concrete? Should he even have
> tried?
> > > > This
> > > > > is one of the issues that divides Sasha from Wolff-Michael, and
> also
> > > > > divides Wolff-Michael from me. Sasha believes that without rising
> to
> > > the
> > > > > concrete, we cannot speak of the Marxist method at all. To me that
> > > > > necessarily means making the concept of neoformation more specific
> > and
> > > > more
> > > > > age-dependent--but Wolff-Michael wants to make it much more general
> > and
> > > > > consequently abstract.
> > > > >
> > > > > c)  What is "perezhivanie" (as a technical term) and what would it
> > mean
> > > > for
> > > > > it to change "dialectically"? Wolff-Michael has set a cat amongst
> the
> > > > > pigeons by defining consciousness itself as "perizhivanie of
> > > > > perizhivanie".  On the one hand, this seems to suggest that
> > > consciousness
> > > > > is an afterthought, and that children cannot have any consciousness
> > at
> > > > all;
> > > > > it also seems (to me) to imply that consciousness is essentially
> > > > > individual, the product of reflection upon reflections (and there
> is
> > a
> > > > > similar argument being made, rather sloppily, by Michael Luntley in
> > the
> > > > > current Educational Philosophical and Theory...
> > > > >
> > > > > Luntley, M. (2017) Forgetski Vygotsky, Educational Philosophy and
> > > Theory,
> > > > > 49:10, 957-970, DOI: 10.1080/00131857.2016.1248341
> > > > >
> > > > > And yet there are two things about Wolff-Michael's formula that do
> > > appeal
> > > > > to me:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. The idea that dialectical development is essentially
> > differentiation
> > > > and
> > > > > not replacement of one form by another. If consciousness is
> > essentially
> > > > > perizhivanie turned back on itself (like language turned back on
> > > itself)
> > > > it
> > > > > is easy to see how we develop--by unraveling it.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2. The idea that consciousness is the "meaning of meaning". Of
> > course,
> > > > > that's not exactly what he said, but it is what I get when I turn
> it
> > > back
> > > > > on itself....
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > David Kellogg
> > > > >
> > > > > Recent Article in *Mind, Culture, and Activity* 24 (4) 'Metaphoric,
> > > > > Metonymic, Eclectic, or Dialectic? A Commentary on “Neoformation: A
> > > > > Dialectical Approach to Developmental Change”'
> > > > >
> > > > > Free e-print available (for a short time only) at
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/YAWPBtmPM8knMCNg6sS6/full
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 7:05 PM, Alfredo Jornet Gil <
> > > a.j.gil@iped.uio.no
> > > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Just a reminder that the article for discussion on neoformation
> is
> > > now
> > > > > > open access at the MCA T&F pages.
> > > > > > http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10749039.
> 2016.1179327
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There recently were questions in this list concerning adult
> > > > development.
> > > > > > There was then no mention to this article, which I think was
> > already
> > > > > > published, but it turns out that it discusses a developmental
> > > turn-over
> > > > > in
> > > > > > the professional and everyday life of an adult teacher, using and
> > > > > > discussing the concept of neoformation and the associated law of
> > > > > transition
> > > > > > of quantity into quality. Vygotsky introduced the concept in
> > writings
> > > > > about
> > > > > > child development, and so I assume there may be issues or
> > challenges
> > > > > > specific to the extension of these notions beyond child
> > development.
> > > I
> > > > > > wonder what others in this list and outside it think, how and
> > whether
> > > > > those
> > > > > > interested in adult development find the contributions present in
> > the
> > > > > > article relevant/appealing/problematic...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Alfredo
> > > > > > ________________________________________
> > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu
> > <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.
> > > edu
> > > > >
> > > > > > on behalf of Alfredo Jornet Gil <a.j.gil@iped.uio.no>
> > > > > > Sent: 07 December 2017 19:33
> > > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Neoformation and developmental change: Issue 4
> > > > article
> > > > > > for    discussion
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Steemed xmca'ers,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the year is close to its end and we have yet to discuss a
> selected
> > > > > article
> > > > > > from Issue 4. The choice this time is an article written by
> > > > Wolff-Michael
> > > > > > Roth: "Neoformation: A Dialectical Approach to Developmental
> > > Change?".
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The article, which is attached and will be made open access for a
> > > brief
> > > > > > time soon, brings up the concept of "neoformation", a Vygotskian
> > > notion
> > > > > > that has appeared more than once in xmca but which is not so
> common
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > literature, despite having quite a methodological import in
> > > Vygotsky's
> > > > > > writings.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I believe the topic is timely given parallel discussions and
> > > critiques
> > > > to
> > > > > > Vygotsky in xmca and in recent literature. Moreover, the article
> > > brings
> > > > > > with it a companion, David's Kellogg commentary (which is open
> > access
> > > > > right
> > > > > > now), and a response by Michael. So its a 3 for 1 treat!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The whole issue is published here:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/hmca20/current?nav=tocList
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Michael has kindly agreed to join the conversation in the coming
> > > days,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > I encourage you all to have a look at the paper and not to be shy
> > > > > bringing
> > > > > > in comments and questions. I think this is a unique opportunity
> we
> > > have
> > > > > for
> > > > > > digging into the different ways in which Vygotsky's legacy may
> live
> > > on
> > > > in
> > > > > > current and future CHAT and CHAT-related research/literature.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Alfredo
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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