[Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy

[mike cole]

Hard to get me to disagree with any of that. And yes, the issues are dealt
with in a very interesting way in the most recent issue of MCA in Martin's
review essay of Tomasello.
People should pester martin for the review, perhaps  a draft of it posted
to the list.

I think we all have a tendency to get confused when thinking about such
matters because of the non-linearity of culturally mediated thought/action.
We talk about/inuit "facing the future" when in fact when can only face the
past, except through a process of imaginative prolepsis.

I was wondering just this morning whether or not the notion of a
"bio-social behavioral shift in a culturally organized context" might serve
as a germ cell for understanding the notion of
"crisis" in LSV's theory of ontogenetic development. Gotta dig out some
text on that way of looking at things.

>From notes below i gather that the interpretive process of the active
person is in the SSD pari parsu with changes in the institutional
arrangement of their lives. Is that right, Peg/Martin?
mike

On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Peg Griffin <Peg.Griffin@att.net> wrote:

> Thanks for calling attention to the Bozhovich (2004), Mike.   Nice to
> notice the play of drives and SSDs, in it, especially.
> When the child is organized  in/by an SSD, could we say there is learning
> going on that might lead to development?  But at first it isn't
> development, just learning?  (And/or can we say the child/adolescent starts
> with "merely understood" but not "really effective" motives?)  So the a
> child might do something because "mommy says so" and when a teacher comes
> into it her life she might  add or switch to "teacher says so" and add or
> switch what's being done, too.  Sort of disappointing (maybe even
> embarrassing perhaps to the teacher) but the child is organized by and
> acting "as if" they are participants in/co-constructors of the school SSD.
> So there's a ground that the figure might develop in, a petri dish type of
> culture for the child's future...
> I like to think of the morphology of the word "organ-ize" -- the child is
> a different organ when they get to develop so that the motive of/in the SSD
> is really effective.
>
> I'm hoping Martin Packer will link it to his points in his post about
> Tomasello...
>
> Peg
>
> PS  Maybe it's my old age but I get a kick out of reading a highlighted
> PDF -- get the feeling of a sort of  illicit reading over someone's
> shoulder!  It's in real contrast to the annoyance I used to get from paper
> copies with other folks' highlighting or underlining.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole
> Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 11:55 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy
>
> I find it a little odd to think that SSD has little to do with biological
> maturation.
> So few 6 month olds get married these days.
>
> However, the "structuring of forms the child does not yet 'have' " is
> certainly central to the sociocultural organization of human development.
> Among other things, mismatches in timing between adult normative
> expectations and child behaviors associated with, say, the maturation of
> bowel control or the ability to sit quietly at a desk for several hours at
> a time might just give rise to the kinds of phenomena that lSV refers to as
> crises.
>
> I am not sure. What are the criteria for a crisis? Are they generally
> agreed upon and to be found in practice-guiding texts for, say,
> professional pediatricians?
>
> It seems that the attached may be relevant to several of the remarks in
> this thread.
>
> Uncertain-in-so-cal
> mike
>
> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2013_01.dir/pdf5I3He7qyRQ.pdf
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I think I agree with that (that SSD has little to do with biological
> > maturation).
> >
> > This is actually, to my reading, a subtle yet very appropriate passage
> > that Peg has unearthed or recollected.
> >
> > These things that the child really does need, wherein the child
> > conveys "I cannot get on without this", is a reference to materials
> > that enable the structuring of forms that the child does not yet have,
> > i.e. they are necessary (but perhaps insufficient on their own) means
> > to their development of neo-formations, or, indeed, transformations in
> > their way of knowing.
> >
> > The sense I get is that this imperative is not derived from a need to
> > comply with bureaucratic processes (e.g. black shoes must be worn at
> > school), but with a recognition that something objective and
> > fundamental cannot be achieved without it.
> >
> > Huw
> >
> >
> > On 22 March 2015 at 00:38, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> >
> > > p. 365, "The Child's Psyche":
> > >
> > > "A child may or may not be bought a toy, but it is impossible not to
> > > buy it a textbook or an exercise book. The child therefore requests
> > > a schoolbook to be bought for it quite differently to how it asks
> > > for a toy to be bought. These requests have a different sense not
> > > only for its parents but above all for the child itself."
> > >
> > > I was thinking, in relation to Huw's issues, that really SSD is
> > > little to do with "biological maturation." It is to do with the
> > > normative series of roles, and these are found in bureaucracies as
> > > well as the modern life
> > of a
> > > child.
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ----
> > > *Andy Blunden*
> > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> > >
> > >
> > > Peg Griffin wrote:
> > >
> > >> Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am I
> > >> mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in Leontiev's
> > >> "Problems in the Development of Mind:"  A child not yet going to
> > >> school
> > and
> > >> a child going to school have different "calls" on the family to buy
> > pencils
> > >> or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need
> > >> for
> > the
> > >> older one.   I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not
> > just in
> > >> my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural
> > >> institutions
> > impact
> > >> one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it and
> > >> then there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual.
> > >> [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where this
> > might
> > >> be in the Leontiev book.  Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far
> > >> away
> > from
> > >> the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize light! ]
> > >> Peg
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an
> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
>
>
>


-- 
It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object
that creates history. Ernst Boesch.