[Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy

Sun Mar 22 20:24:09 PDT 2015

I'm not sure who's who  in this part of your note, Mike: " From notes below i gather that the interpretive process of the active
person is in the SSD pari parsu with changes in the institutional arrangement of their lives. Is that right, Peg/Martin?"

By active person do you mean, for example, the child in Leontiev example shopping example or do you mean the adults who are enacting the interactions (and constituting the SSD)?  
And I'm not sure about interpretive process.  I'm not sure what that kind of process is and what "counts" as one in the wild.  I suspect that it might be exactly where the "merely understood" comes in:  The child might be able to give a performance of the words about the motive of school but it isn't really effective for self- or other- organization of his behaviors so the other folks in the SSD have back-up really effective motives ready to roll out.  Something about expert and novice roles in SSDs might be relevant…

I was so happy to be reminded of the wonderful diverse world by Andy's post from Barbara Rogoff's book (Rogoff, B. (2003). The cultural nature of human development. NY: Oxford University Press) .
I’m appending here another little snippet about her work that includes a photo of an 11 month old "skillfully using a machete" -- I am thinking hard about that little one's monitoring grandmother and the enculturation routines and backups that her culture has passed down to her for that social situation of development.
http://people.ucsc.edu/~brogoff/William%20James%20Award.pdf
Peg
-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 2:12 PM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy

Hard to get me to disagree with any of that. And yes, the issues are dealt with in a very interesting way in the most recent issue of MCA in Martin's review essay of Tomasello.
People should pester martin for the review, perhaps  a draft of it posted to the list.

I think we all have a tendency to get confused when thinking about such matters because of the non-linearity of culturally mediated thought/action.
We talk about/inuit "facing the future" when in fact when can only face the past, except through a process of imaginative prolepsis.

I was wondering just this morning whether or not the notion of a "bio-social behavioral shift in a culturally organized context" might serve as a germ cell for understanding the notion of "crisis" in LSV's theory of ontogenetic development. Gotta dig out some text on that way of looking at things.

>From notes below i gather that the interpretive process of the active
person is in the SSD pari parsu with changes in the institutional arrangement of their lives. Is that right, Peg/Martin?
mike

On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Peg Griffin <Peg.Griffin@att.net> wrote:

> Thanks for calling attention to the Bozhovich (2004), Mike.   Nice to
> notice the play of drives and SSDs, in it, especially.
> When the child is organized  in/by an SSD, could we say there is 
> learning going on that might lead to development?  But at first it 
> isn't development, just learning?  (And/or can we say the 
> child/adolescent starts with "merely understood" but not "really 
> effective" motives?)  So the a child might do something because "mommy 
> says so" and when a teacher comes into it her life she might  add or 
> switch to "teacher says so" and add or switch what's being done, too.  
> Sort of disappointing (maybe even embarrassing perhaps to the teacher) 
> but the child is organized by and acting "as if" they are participants in/co-constructors of the school SSD.
> So there's a ground that the figure might develop in, a petri dish 
> type of culture for the child's future...
> I like to think of the morphology of the word "organ-ize" -- the child 
> is a different organ when they get to develop so that the motive of/in 
> the SSD is really effective.
>
> I'm hoping Martin Packer will link it to his points in his post about 
> Tomasello...
>
> Peg
>
> PS  Maybe it's my old age but I get a kick out of reading a 
> highlighted PDF -- get the feeling of a sort of  illicit reading over 
> someone's shoulder!  It's in real contrast to the annoyance I used to 
> get from paper copies with other folks' highlighting or underlining.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole
> Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 11:55 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Resending LSV/ANL on crisis in ontogengy
>
> I find it a little odd to think that SSD has little to do with 
> biological maturation.
> So few 6 month olds get married these days.
>
> However, the "structuring of forms the child does not yet 'have' " is 
> certainly central to the sociocultural organization of human development.
> Among other things, mismatches in timing between adult normative 
> expectations and child behaviors associated with, say, the maturation 
> of bowel control or the ability to sit quietly at a desk for several 
> hours at a time might just give rise to the kinds of phenomena that 
> lSV refers to as crises.
>
> I am not sure. What are the criteria for a crisis? Are they generally 
> agreed upon and to be found in practice-guiding texts for, say, 
> professional pediatricians?
>
> It seems that the attached may be relevant to several of the remarks 
> in this thread.
>
> Uncertain-in-so-cal
> mike
>
> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Mail/xmcamail.2013_01.dir/pdf5I3He7qyRQ.pdf
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I think I agree with that (that SSD has little to do with biological 
> > maturation).
> >
> > This is actually, to my reading, a subtle yet very appropriate 
> > passage that Peg has unearthed or recollected.
> >
> > These things that the child really does need, wherein the child 
> > conveys "I cannot get on without this", is a reference to materials 
> > that enable the structuring of forms that the child does not yet 
> > have, i.e. they are necessary (but perhaps insufficient on their 
> > own) means to their development of neo-formations, or, indeed, 
> > transformations in their way of knowing.
> >
> > The sense I get is that this imperative is not derived from a need 
> > to comply with bureaucratic processes (e.g. black shoes must be worn 
> > at school), but with a recognition that something objective and 
> > fundamental cannot be achieved without it.
> >
> > Huw
> >
> >
> > On 22 March 2015 at 00:38, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> >
> > > p. 365, "The Child's Psyche":
> > >
> > > "A child may or may not be bought a toy, but it is impossible not 
> > > to buy it a textbook or an exercise book. The child therefore 
> > > requests a schoolbook to be bought for it quite differently to how 
> > > it asks for a toy to be bought. These requests have a different 
> > > sense not only for its parents but above all for the child itself."
> > >
> > > I was thinking, in relation to Huw's issues, that really SSD is 
> > > little to do with "biological maturation." It is to do with the 
> > > normative series of roles, and these are found in bureaucracies as 
> > > well as the modern life
> > of a
> > > child.
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --
> > > ----
> > > *Andy Blunden*
> > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
> > >
> > >
> > > Peg Griffin wrote:
> > >
> > >> Thinking of growth which challenges social arrangements, Andy, am 
> > >> I mistakenly remembering an anecdote like the following in 
> > >> Leontiev's "Problems in the Development of Mind:"  A child not 
> > >> yet going to school
> > and
> > >> a child going to school have different "calls" on the family to 
> > >> buy
> > pencils
> > >> or crayons -- might be nice for the younger one but absolute need 
> > >> for
> > the
> > >> older one.   I hope this scenario is really there (or somewhere not
> > just in
> > >> my internal constructions] because in it socio-cultural 
> > >> institutions
> > impact
> > >> one another and pull in the individual's growth while doing it 
> > >> and then there's a wonderful arabesque rebound to the individual.
> > >> [Sorry I don't right now have a copy and a way to get to where 
> > >> this
> > might
> > >> be in the Leontiev book.  Hint:) I'm really pretty sure it's far 
> > >> away
> > from
> > >> the part about trying to teach forearm cells to recognize light! 
> > >> ] Peg
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an 
> object that creates history. Ernst Boesch.
>
>
>

--
It is the dilemma of psychology to deal as a natural science with an object that creates history. Ernst Boesch.