[Xmca-l] Re: Fate, Luck and Chance

Mon Nov 24 14:13:31 PST 2014

Don't get your point, Huw. A rectangle is generally defined as having unequal sides, in contrast to a square, so that's not helping me. Obviously (I would think) I am not saying that consciousness is the entirely of matter. 

Perhaps you can help me in my struggle...

Martin

On Nov 24, 2014, at 4:41 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> wrote:

> A small point, perhaps: "Consciousness is materially constituted".
> 
> Stating that "consciousness is matter (or material)" is rather like saying
> that a square is matter as opposed to saying that a square is a rectangle,
> unless of course one intends to assert that consciousness is the entirety
> of matter.
> 
> Best,
> Huw
> 
> 
> 
> On 24 November 2014 at 21:19, Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu> wrote:
> 
>> Apologies! That was a response to something else entirely (major snow
>> forecast following summer temps in the Philadelphia/NYC area). p
>> 
>> Peter Smagorinsky
>> Distinguished Research Professor of English Education
>> Department of Language and Literacy Education
>> The University of Georgia
>> 315 Aderhold Hall
>> Athens, GA 30602
>> 
>> Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education
>> 
>> Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga
>> 
>> 
>> Personal twitter account: @psmagorinsky
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky
>> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 4:02 PM
>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fate, Luck and Chance
>> 
>> Amazing when juxtaposed with today's temps:
>> 
>> [cid:image001.png@01D007FF.FEAF7170]
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Peter Smagorinsky
>> 
>> Distinguished Research Professor of English Education
>> 
>> Department of Language and Literacy Education
>> 
>> The University of Georgia
>> 
>> 315 Aderhold Hall
>> 
>> Athens, GA 30602
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education
>> 
>> Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Personal twitter account: @psmagorinsky
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin John Packer
>> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 3:53 PM
>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fate, Luck and Chance
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Andy,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I don't see that being rude advances the conversation.  When I assert a
>> position here in this discussion I try to base it on an argument, and/or in
>> sources that we all have access to. I'm certainly not trying to cloud any
>> issues, and I don't think that arguing from authority (one's own assumed)
>> dispels the clouds.  I guess I simply don't have access to "a whole
>> tradition of science."  :(
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To respond to your other message, yes, I am arguing that consciousness
>> (and thinking) are material processes. They are consequences of (certain
>> kinds of) matter in (certain kinds of) motion.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Against whom am I arguing? I am arguing against all those psychologists
>> who argue that consciousness (and thinking) are mental processes -
>> processes which they believe take place in some mysterious realm called
>> "the mind" that is populated by "mental representations" of the "world
>> outside." I deal with people who make this argument on a daily basis. They
>> believe that the proper object of investigation for psychology is "mind,"
>> and so they have no interest in setting, or culture, or practical
>> activities.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Yes, Haydi's message is the portion of Crisis that I pointed to in my last
>> message.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Martin
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Nov 24, 2014, at 8:35 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net<mailto:
>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> I am speaking from a whole tradition of science, Martin, not trying to
>> translate Vygotsky's Russian.
>> 
>>> You are an expert yourself in using the word "material" to cloud the
>> issue so I hardly think I need give you lessons.
>> 
>>> Read Haydi's message. It's all there.
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> Andy
>> 
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>>> --
>> 
>>> *Andy Blunden*
>> 
>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> Martin John Packer wrote:
>> 
>>>> Andy, from where do you obtain this distinction between 'matter' and
>> 'material'? Are we dealing here with two distinct words in Russian? Do you
>> have any evidence that LSV draws such a distinction? One, of course, is an
>> adjective and the other is a noun. But why would anyone apply the adjective
>> to anything to which the noun would not also apply.
>> 
>>>> Martin
>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>>>> On Nov 23, 2014, at 10:43 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net<mailto:
>> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> Annalisa,
>> 
>>>>> It is impossible to take this conversation forward unless we establish
>> some shared concepts and word meanings.
>> 
>>>>> "Material" is a word which can be used very loosely and applied to
>> almost anything. But "matter" (in this discourse) is a philosophical
>> category denoting all that which exists outside of and independently of
>> consciousness but is knowable through human activity. Any finite category
>> (such as word, cosmos, thing, movement, ...) in some sense both outside of
>> consciousness and a product of consciousness, but "matter" is the base
>> category which distinguishes illusions, fantasies, phantoms, ideas, etc.,
>> from what exists.
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> You can mean anything you like by any of these words, but if the
>> people you are talking to mean something else by the same words, then
>> confusion can follow. We need to be on the same page.
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> All the basic concepts are explained, with references for follow-up
>> 
>>>>> reading here: http://wiki.lchc.ucsd.edu/CHAT/WebHome
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> Andy
>> 
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>>>>> ----
>> 
>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>> 
>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> Annalisa Aguilar wrote:
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Ok Andy, I want to give this the time it deserves, but when I say
>> word is not material but form, what I mean is that to say word is material
>> doesn't distinguish it from sound, because word and sound are the
>> constituted identically. The difference is in form.
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> If I may say, it's like saying fashion is nothing but fabric. This
>> doesn't tell me anything about fashion and why I like Commes des Garçon and
>> you like Vivian Westwood. I intuit at this point in time that form is the
>> basis of culture, not material because almost everything is material.
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> I would only make allowance for time and space, because neither one
>> is material. If you tell me time is a clock, I'm going to laugh. As far as
>> space, material is in space, but space is not "in" material, it is
>> pervasive, but not "in" it. Space is not made of material. I think these
>> conceptual distinctions are important.
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> But that's me.
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Kind regards
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Annalisa
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> ________________________________________
>> 
>>>>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:
>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>> 
>>>>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:
>> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on behalf of Andy Blunden
>> 
>>>>>> <ablunden@mira.net<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
>> 
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2014 6:59 PM
>> 
>>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>> 
>>>>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fate, Luck and Chance
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Annalisa, making a distinction between matter and movement is
>> 
>>>>>> problematic and was not my intention. The atoms which make up your
>> 
>>>>>> body will be dancing somewhere else 7 years from now. In any case I
>> 
>>>>>> meant "matter" in the philosophical sense, as that which exists
>> 
>>>>>> independently of and outside of consciousness. So pressure waves in
>> 
>>>>>> air are equally material as scratches on paper, characters on your
>> 
>>>>>> screen or inscriptions on stone tablets.
>> 
>>>>>> Because we are inclined to say that the little packet of sound you
>> 
>>>>>> get when you say "ger" is 'the same word' as what is written a
>> 
>>>>>> couple of inches back on this line, we easily forget that no word
>> 
>>>>>> exists other than in one or another of its material instantiations.
>> 
>>>>>> But we don't talk by mental telepathy, but only by placing material
>> 
>>>>>> objects within the perceptual fields of another person, for them to
>> 
>>>>>> interpret. It's when there is some breakdown in communication that
>> 
>>>>>> you hyave to go back and look at the actual, material form you gave
>> to your words.
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Andy
>> 
>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>>>>>> -----
>> 
>>>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>> 
>>>>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Annalisa Aguilar wrote:
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>>> Andy,
>> 
>>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>>> Please explain how words are material. Do you mean this literally or
>> metaphorically?
>> 
>>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>>> I am prone to accept that mind is material, but of a different order
>> than Grandma's apple pie, mountains or a vinyl record. I can't quite see
>> how words are material. Sounds traveling through space are movements of
>> material (air), so that to me would be like saying dancing is material, if
>> dancing is material, then what is the body who dances? And how is the body
>> different from the dance?
>> 
>>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>>> Kind regards,
>> 
>>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>>> Annalisa
>> 
>>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>>>> 
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>>> 
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>> 