[Xmca-l] Re: Fate, Luck and Chance

Mon Nov 24 13:41:09 PST 2014

A small point, perhaps: "Consciousness is materially constituted".

Stating that "consciousness is matter (or material)" is rather like saying
that a square is matter as opposed to saying that a square is a rectangle,
unless of course one intends to assert that consciousness is the entirety
of matter.

Best,
Huw

On 24 November 2014 at 21:19, Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu> wrote:

> Apologies! That was a response to something else entirely (major snow
> forecast following summer temps in the Philadelphia/NYC area). p
>
> Peter Smagorinsky
> Distinguished Research Professor of English Education
> Department of Language and Literacy Education
> The University of Georgia
> 315 Aderhold Hall
> Athens, GA 30602
>
> Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education
>
> Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga
>
>
> Personal twitter account: @psmagorinsky
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Peter Smagorinsky
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 4:02 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fate, Luck and Chance
>
> Amazing when juxtaposed with today's temps:
>
> [cid:image001.png@01D007FF.FEAF7170]
>
>
>
> Peter Smagorinsky
>
> Distinguished Research Professor of English Education
>
> Department of Language and Literacy Education
>
> The University of Georgia
>
> 315 Aderhold Hall
>
> Athens, GA 30602
>
>
>
> Advisor, Journal of Language and Literacy Education
>
> Follow JoLLE on twitter @Jolle_uga
>
>
>
>
>
> Personal twitter account: @psmagorinsky
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Martin John Packer
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 3:53 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fate, Luck and Chance
>
>
>
> Andy,
>
>
>
> I don't see that being rude advances the conversation.  When I assert a
> position here in this discussion I try to base it on an argument, and/or in
> sources that we all have access to. I'm certainly not trying to cloud any
> issues, and I don't think that arguing from authority (one's own assumed)
> dispels the clouds.  I guess I simply don't have access to "a whole
> tradition of science."  :(
>
>
>
> To respond to your other message, yes, I am arguing that consciousness
> (and thinking) are material processes. They are consequences of (certain
> kinds of) matter in (certain kinds of) motion.
>
>
>
> Against whom am I arguing? I am arguing against all those psychologists
> who argue that consciousness (and thinking) are mental processes -
> processes which they believe take place in some mysterious realm called
> "the mind" that is populated by "mental representations" of the "world
> outside." I deal with people who make this argument on a daily basis. They
> believe that the proper object of investigation for psychology is "mind,"
> and so they have no interest in setting, or culture, or practical
> activities.
>
>
>
> Yes, Haydi's message is the portion of Crisis that I pointed to in my last
> message.
>
>
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> On Nov 24, 2014, at 8:35 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net<mailto:
> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I am speaking from a whole tradition of science, Martin, not trying to
> translate Vygotsky's Russian.
>
> > You are an expert yourself in using the word "material" to cloud the
> issue so I hardly think I need give you lessons.
>
> > Read Haydi's message. It's all there.
>
> >
>
> > Andy
>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > --
>
> > *Andy Blunden*
>
> > http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Martin John Packer wrote:
>
> >> Andy, from where do you obtain this distinction between 'matter' and
> 'material'? Are we dealing here with two distinct words in Russian? Do you
> have any evidence that LSV draws such a distinction? One, of course, is an
> adjective and the other is a noun. But why would anyone apply the adjective
> to anything to which the noun would not also apply.
>
> >> Martin
>
> >>
>
> >> On Nov 23, 2014, at 10:43 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net<mailto:
> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>> Annalisa,
>
> >>> It is impossible to take this conversation forward unless we establish
> some shared concepts and word meanings.
>
> >>> "Material" is a word which can be used very loosely and applied to
> almost anything. But "matter" (in this discourse) is a philosophical
> category denoting all that which exists outside of and independently of
> consciousness but is knowable through human activity. Any finite category
> (such as word, cosmos, thing, movement, ...) in some sense both outside of
> consciousness and a product of consciousness, but "matter" is the base
> category which distinguishes illusions, fantasies, phantoms, ideas, etc.,
> from what exists.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> You can mean anything you like by any of these words, but if the
> people you are talking to mean something else by the same words, then
> confusion can follow. We need to be on the same page.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> All the basic concepts are explained, with references for follow-up
>
> >>> reading here: http://wiki.lchc.ucsd.edu/CHAT/WebHome
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Andy
>
> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >>> ----
>
> >>> *Andy Blunden*
>
> >>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Annalisa Aguilar wrote:
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> Ok Andy, I want to give this the time it deserves, but when I say
> word is not material but form, what I mean is that to say word is material
> doesn't distinguish it from sound, because word and sound are the
> constituted identically. The difference is in form.
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> If I may say, it's like saying fashion is nothing but fabric. This
> doesn't tell me anything about fashion and why I like Commes des Garçon and
> you like Vivian Westwood. I intuit at this point in time that form is the
> basis of culture, not material because almost everything is material.
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> I would only make allowance for time and space, because neither one
> is material. If you tell me time is a clock, I'm going to laugh. As far as
> space, material is in space, but space is not "in" material, it is
> pervasive, but not "in" it. Space is not made of material. I think these
> conceptual distinctions are important.
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> But that's me.
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Kind regards
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Annalisa
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> ________________________________________
>
> >>>> From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:
> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>
>
> >>>> <xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu<mailto:
> xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu>> on behalf of Andy Blunden
>
> >>>> <ablunden@mira.net<mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
>
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2014 6:59 PM
>
> >>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>
> >>>> Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Fate, Luck and Chance
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Annalisa, making a distinction between matter and movement is
>
> >>>> problematic and was not my intention. The atoms which make up your
>
> >>>> body will be dancing somewhere else 7 years from now. In any case I
>
> >>>> meant "matter" in the philosophical sense, as that which exists
>
> >>>> independently of and outside of consciousness. So pressure waves in
>
> >>>> air are equally material as scratches on paper, characters on your
>
> >>>> screen or inscriptions on stone tablets.
>
> >>>> Because we are inclined to say that the little packet of sound you
>
> >>>> get when you say "ger" is 'the same word' as what is written a
>
> >>>> couple of inches back on this line, we easily forget that no word
>
> >>>> exists other than in one or another of its material instantiations.
>
> >>>> But we don't talk by mental telepathy, but only by placing material
>
> >>>> objects within the perceptual fields of another person, for them to
>
> >>>> interpret. It's when there is some breakdown in communication that
>
> >>>> you hyave to go back and look at the actual, material form you gave
> to your words.
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Andy
>
> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >>>> -----
>
> >>>> *Andy Blunden*
>
> >>>> http://home.pacific.net.au/~andy/
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Annalisa Aguilar wrote:
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>>> Andy,
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>> Please explain how words are material. Do you mean this literally or
> metaphorically?
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>> I am prone to accept that mind is material, but of a different order
> than Grandma's apple pie, mountains or a vinyl record. I can't quite see
> how words are material. Sounds traveling through space are movements of
> material (air), so that to me would be like saying dancing is material, if
> dancing is material, then what is the body who dances? And how is the body
> different from the dance?
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>> Kind regards,
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>> Annalisa
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>