[Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought --

[Beth Ferholt <bferholt@gmail.com>]

This is very very helpful, Artin.  Monica and I are both about to fly to
the US, me to return her for a few month, so we will have to discuss and
respond in a couple weeks.   Thank you! Beth


On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Goncu, Artin <goncu@uic.edu> wrote:

>
>
>
> Hi Beth and Monica--
>
> Although I have quietly followed some of the posts on this issue, I don't
> remember exactly what was said before. So, if anything I say is redundant
> or not so relevant, just feel free to ignore it..
>
> In discussions of whether or how imaginative play leads to development of
> symbols, one important issue that is often not considered is the
> motivation for play.  A shared conviction among theorists like Freud,
> Piaget, and Vygotsky is that children play in order to make sense of an
> affectively significant experience, e.g., to heal a wound (Freud), to
> develop mastery over a personal past experience (Piaget), or to anticipate
> future based on partial understandings of an experience (Vygotsky.)  I
> believe all of these to be true based on my own work with young children
> as a former preschool teacher and some clinical experience with children
> who had learning disabilities.  Suzanne Gaskins and I wrote about these
> issues together before too.  Cindy Dell Clark's book on the role of play
> in the treatment of children with asthma and diabetes supports this idea
> too.  So, it seems to me that if we can show/understand the connection
> between children's play activities and their antecedents, it will be
> easier to see that even by virtue of expressing something of personal
> significance in play, children are making an effort to symbolize that
> experience.
>
> A second issue relates to how the experience gets represented.  In the
> 1970s and 80s, Greta Fein wrote a lot about this issue.  She argued and
> showed that the road to symbolization begins with placing a familiar
> personal event of significance in the context of play, e.g., an infant's
> pretending to drink from an empty bottle.  Greta called this
> de-contextualization.  With age, a de-contextualized event gets
> transformed through different means, i.e., objects and ideas, and
> opportunities as afforded by their cultural/community contexts.  In other
> words, something can be represented either through a very structured toy
> or not using any object at all.  So, if we see symbolization taking place
> in many different ways, it may be easier to see how play leads to symbolic
> development.  (One example I can think of from the arts is how
> representation of a tree had changed in Modigliani's paintings from tree
> figures to geometric shapes...)
>
> Basically, I am suggesting that the connection between play and symbolic
> development will be easier to see if we understand the connection between
> play activities and their non-play antecedents, and also that there is a
> developmental/contextual order/preference to how experiences get
> represented in play.
>
> All the best, ag
>
> On Fri, December 13, 2013 10:34 am, Beth Ferholt wrote:
> > We apologize for the delay responding:
> > We have been thinking about what you all wrote, reading the suggestions
> > and
> > then going into the preschools to gather more data in response ...
> > This is what we came up with, and we are working here as much from
> > interviews with the many (35) teachers with whom we are working as from
> > observations of teaching and learning:
> >
> > We think that the way we asked the question enforced some dichotomies
> that
> > we want to challenge, particularly between form and content -- but also
> > between symbolic thought and play.  So, to the many of you who said this:
> > what do we mean by symbolic thought? the simplest unit?: let us try a
> > different approach to this dilemma.  Peg: Mash up -- yes!  But before
> they
> > mash maybe we are seeing some preparation for the mash?
> >
> > Gunilla Lindqvist (1995) was searching for a common denominator between
> > art
> > and play when she developed playworlds.  Discussions with Kiyo (Mizasaki)
> > during the recent playworld conference have brought us back to this
> > question.  So has a paper Mike suggested by Dennis Newman: Learning to
> > Draw
> > a Picture in Discourse Processes, 1980.
> >
> > It seems to us that the teachers here are creating a pivot in the way
> they
> > work with the children.  This is based in what they do in their art
> > studios, guided by the artist who works with them (called an atelierista
> > in
> > the Reggio Emilia preschools).  They spend lots and lots of time with the
> > children in very small groups or one-on-one, from the time the children
> > are
> > one, doing what they call listening to the children and helping them to
> > look.
> >
> > But we think, following Newman, that what they are doing with the
> children
> > that is working like the pivot in play to divorce object from meaning, is
> > to be found in creation of an understanding of artistic representation
> > within the social context of the studio/building room, etc.  The teachers
> > speak to the children endlessly -- and not a lecture, this is careful
> > listening and dialogue with what the children do and say -- about how to
> > represent what they see.  The bus is long -- this is why we have a long
> > paper (lots of touching the paper and the photo of the bus (that they
> rode
> > that AM!) here -- ).  The bus is what color?  What paint will you use?
> >  They also are careful to use materials that do not interfere with this
> > process.  If it is a long piece of paper, and the question is about color
> > (not lines) then they have a thick brush.  Also, the emphasis is on the
> > children feeling proud at being able to draw what they want to draw.  In
> > this the teacher is looking for that moment of understanding that the
> > stick
> > (picture) is a horse (bus).  (The children really do shine at this
> moment,
> > it is wild!)
> >
> > All this means that when the children are one and a half they can make a
> >  blade of grass into a key in a story because they are familiar with
> > pivots.  The  lesson was not actually about painting.  Or, it was, but
> the
> > social context -- the events above -- shaped what the lesson was, and it
> > was a lesson about representation.
> >
> > A favorite example of the environment/materials supporting this
> > pivot-creation is the toilet paper tubes with their photos laminated on
> > them.  In the block area they and their friends -- represented by toilet
> > paper tubes -- play in the block buildings they make.  When the two year
> > olds start to point out that this is them, it is as if we could SEE that
> > the art activities and the play DO have a common denominator.
> >
> > OK, we are still exploring, and we are thinking about ALL the responses
> > you
> > gave us although we do not yet have responses to all.
> >
> > To the suggestion of posting footage, we would like to but our IRB does
> > not
> > allow it.
> >
> > TO Nacho -- Hi : ) !  Great tip that as you see we followed!!!!!
> >
> > Very happy to have more feedback, as this back and forth between you all
> > and the teachers is a wonderful social context for our development in
> > relation to this problem!
> >
> > Beth and Monica
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 4:32 AM, larry smolucha
> > <lsmolucha@hotmail.com>wrote:
> >
> >> Message from Francine:
> >> Beth,
> >> I this is what I think is going on at the preschool you describe. Over
> >> the
> >> past 40 years, I have observed several changes in what was deemed
> >> ideologically fashionable in education and psychology. There was a time
> >> when Piaget was cutting edge (in the USA 1960's) - the devotees were
> >> passionate - it was like Beatlemania. The Vygotsky era in the USA had to
> >> buck up against the Piagetians, but gradually, Vygotsky gained
> >> credibility.
> >> It is important to keep in mind the cold war politics stifling and then
> >> shaping the discourse. Alongside this was the discovery of Derrida as a
> >> sort of cult figure. What would be more predictable than to have a
> >> post-modern movement whose agenda is to render obsolete all of the
> >> towering
> >> intellects of the 20th century to replace them with some turn of the
> >> century Millennium figures [Dahlberg, Moss, Deluze).
> >> Like Andy Blunden, I do see anything in the use of object substitutions
> >> at
> >> age onethat undermines anything in Vygotskian theory (blade of grass as
> >> a
> >> key). Certainly, thebehavior is precocious. Also, the precocious
> >> recognition of alphabet letters and numbers in the second year of life,
> >> does not disprove Vygotsky or Piaget.
> >> As a play researcher, I would have a few questions about the use of the
> >> blade of grassas a key: (1) What served as the lock? A real lock, on a
> >> door
> >> perhaps? So was the bladeof grass stuck in the lock? (2) Did the toddler
> >> say anything indicating it was a key or the action was unlocking the
> >> door?
> >> Just sticking a blade of grass in a lock would be coded [in a
> >> dissertation] as a proto-object substitution. Additional gestures such
> >> as
> >> turning the blade of grass like a key, and/or turning the handle of the
> >> door and opening it, would support a 'symbolic' function.Certainly,
> >> naming
> >> and especially renaming the blade of grass would be evidence.From your
> >> description of one year olds (plural) 'opening a locked door' and
> >> describing what is inside, I suspect that the teachers were leading the
> >> children in this play activity and that is was actually guided pretend
> >> play
> >> that was scaffolded by the adults.
> >> In my dissertation, I observed the development of object substitutions
> >> (and play gesturesthat suggest invisible objects) in six children from
> >> 14
> >> months of age until 28 months of age.In a half hour observation at 14
> >> months, one child picked up a stacking cup and put it to her lips as if
> >> to
> >> drink  (coded as proto-object substitution with 'invisible substance').
> >> The
> >> gesture could have just been Functionlust (Karl Groos' definition of
> >> pretend play)and that is how the stacking gesture (you describe) with an
> >> imaginary 'ring' would be coded.
> >> In 2002, I did a presentation at the ISCRAT Congress in Amsterdam, at
> >> the
> >> invitation of Bert van Oers. I attended a symposium on play and soon
> >> discovered that Activity Theoryproponents were totally unaware of the
> >> substantial research done on Vygotsky's theory of play (not associated
> >> with
> >> Activity Theory.) As early as 1982, Inge Bretherton edited a book
> >> titled
> >> Symbolic Play that included some examples of pretend play at age one
> >> (particularlyPeggy Miller's chapter on Mother-Baby Role Play).
> >> Beth, can you find a citation for the 2013 review of research that Bert
> >> van Oers referredto when saying the research on the relationship between
> >> play and symbolic developmentwas inconclusive. I bet it was a very
> >> narrow
> >> review of just Activity Theory based studies.
> >> Sorry, I do not have an extra copy of my dissertation. Can you get it
> >> on-line or on loan?It was completed in 1991 at the University of
> >> Chicago. I
> >> will see what I can do to makeit more readily available.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2013 13:47:04 +0200
> >> > From: bferholt@gmail.com
> >> > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> >> > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought --
> >> >
> >> > Thank you for all the interesting responses, both the ones in this
> >> chain
> >> > and the many private responses we received -- we have been hard at
> >> work
> >> > thinking and reading in response!
> >> >
> >> > We had not read all of the things that people sent, before --
> >> Francine,
> >> can
> >> > you send your dissertation? -- but we were familiar with much of it of
> >> it,
> >> > also the work on play and narrative development, language development,
> >> and
> >> > metaphor. BTW, we just heard Bert van Oers talk, a very interesting
> >> talk,
> >> > and he mentioned near the start that the connection was inconclusive
> >> (a
> >> > 2013 literature review – ).
> >> >
> >> > However, what made us reach out to XMCA was the following dilemma:
> >> >
> >> > The teachers at the preschool where we are working are generally
> >> suspicious
> >> > of developmental theory. Gunilla Dahlberg and Peter Moss write some of
> >> the
> >> > books they read in their training, and argue convincingly that
> >> > developmental theory is very important to the discourse that supports
> >> a
> >> > deficit model of the child. These teachers turn to Deluze before
> >> Piaget
> >> and
> >> > they are also wary of Vygotsky -- through the looking glass compared
> >> to
> >> > preschools in the US -- *and* these are the preschools that (because
> >> of
> >> > their practice) we would most want to be in if we were young children,
> >> or
> >> > would most want our kids and grandkids to be in, hand-down.
> >> >
> >> > In any case, many of these teachers have taken on the task of showing
> >> us
> >> > that our idea that play leads to symbolic thought is not right. They
> >> show
> >> > us all this amazing play -- and symbolic thought -- that one year olds
> >> are
> >> > doing. They make films and take photographs and the give hour-long
> >> > presentations to us : ).
> >> >
> >> > For instance, they showed us one year olds pretending a blade of grass
> >> was
> >> > a key and "opening" a locked door and describing what they saw inside.
> >> They
> >> > showed us one year olds using letters and numbers. In fact, my own
> >> just-two
> >> > year old, who has been attending their preschool for almost a year,
> >> could
> >> > identify letters and numbers months ago, and also seems to have an
> >> idea
> >> of
> >> > what these symbols mean/ are for (although I have to think more about
> >> why I
> >> > think this -- I DO think it is right, but why -- ). Many children in
> >> my
> >> > child's class do this, he is certainly not "gifted" when it come to
> >> > reading, so the point is that I had to see it in a child I knew really
> >> well
> >> > to believe it ... and I did, and I do.
> >> >
> >> > So, we are stuck. We really are not ready to give up the relationship
> >> > between play and symbolic thought. But we are confused by what we are
> >> > seeing these very young children doing, and I suppose that when we
> >> wrote
> >> > XMCA we were sort of hoping for some impossible and longitudinal
> >> experiment
> >> > that showed that without play symbolic thought does not develop : ) .
> >> Of
> >> > course we know from Gaskins and Goncu that this is probably not right?
> >> So
> >> > perhaps an experiment that showed children incapable of symbolic
> >> thought,
> >> > playing, and then all of a sudden -- presto – hmmm.
> >> >
> >> > Do people have further thoughts or questions for us? THey would be
> >> much
> >> > appreciated. We don't want to leave the teachers without defending
> >> what
> >> we
> >> > still think is so important about play, but maybe children are more
> >> capable
> >> > of both pretend play and symbolic thought, when they are very, very
> >> young,
> >> > than we thought after our years of teaching in other contexts (in
> >> which
> >> we
> >> > were less supported in seeing the competent child -- really the
> >> competent
> >> > toddler or even baby in this case) and than we though about after our
> >> > reading of VYgotsky on play.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks to a few comments we ARE back to Wartovsky – It may be less
> >> about
> >> > seeing a competent child in these schools, than about their emphasis
> >> on
> >> the
> >> > arts?  Or maybe it’s both?
> >> >
> >> > THank you all again for the help with this, Beth and Monica
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 3:18 AM, larry smolucha <
> lsmolucha@hotmail.com
> >> >wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Message from Francine Smolucha:
> >> > > Beth,
> >> > > I would not hesitate to say that play is essential for
> >> > > development(cognitive, social, emotional,and neurological).
> >> > > Elena Bodrova and Deborah Leong's Tools of the Mind Preschool
> >> > > Curriculumhas also provided supporting evidence that spans these
> >> four
> >> > > domains.They have an ongoing study with the University of
> >> Chicago.While
> >> > > their focus is on self-regulation which itself courses all four
> >> > > domains,they also teach the preschool teachers how to teach the
> >> children to
> >> > > use object substitutions in pretend play. There is much potential
> >> here
> >> for
> >> > > a systematic study of the role of object substitutions in learning
> >> to
> >> use
> >> > > symbol systems.
> >> > > > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 10:34:28 +0200
> >> > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com
> >> > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> >> > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought --
> >> > > >
> >> > > > We will look at your dissertation, from 1991, this is helpful.
> >> And
> >> yes,
> >> > > > this is what we are thinking about.  Your response makes me think
> >> more
> >> > > > broadly about the challenge the teachers we are working with are
> >> posing
> >> > > to
> >> > > > our conception of the importance of play in child development ...
> >> I
> >> think
> >> > > > we must be more clear about this before we can answer my question,
> >> above.
> >> > > >  I don't think we want to say play is essential, so then we need
> >> to
> >> ask
> >> > > why
> >> > > > we want to say it is hard to replace, or particularly efficient at
> >> what
> >> > > it
> >> > > > does -- The response will not be found in one experiment. Thank
> >> you!
> >> > >  Beth
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 3:01 AM, larry smolucha <
> >> lsmolucha@hotmail.com
> >> > > >wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > Message from Francine Smolucha:
> >> > > > > Beth,
> >> > > > > According to Vygotsky, object substitutions in pretend play
> >> (such
> >> as
> >> > > > > riding on a stick as if it were a  horse) are the pivot for
> >> separating
> >> > > > > meaning from object. The ability to make the gesture with a
> >> non-replica
> >> > > > > object leads to more abstract symbols such as using pictorial
> >> > > > > representation (such as stick people and stick animals in
> >> drawings, i.
> >> > > e.,
> >> > > > > line drawings) to words made out of alphabet letters and
> >> numerical
> >> > > > > notations. I do not know of any one longitudinal study that
> >> documented
> >> > > this
> >> > > > > progression, but there are certainly studies thatfocused on
> >> specific
> >> > > > > components. My doctoral dissertation University of Chicago
> >> > > 1991documented
> >> > > > > how objects changed their names and functions in pretend play (a
> >> > > > > longitudinal study of toddlers aged 14- to 28- months.) Isn't
> >> that
> >> the
> >> > > > > basic definition of a symbol - that one object can stand for
> >> another
> >> > > > > (re-present another)???
> >> > > > > Are you thinking of something along these lines?
> >> > > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:31:41 +0200
> >> > > > > > From: bferholt@gmail.com
> >> > > > > > To: xmca-l@mailman.ucsd.edu
> >> > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Re: Play and symbolic thought --
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > We are wondering if there is anything actually showing that
> >> play
> >> > > allows
> >> > > > > for
> >> > > > > > the development of symbolic thought ... we do not have an idea
> >> what
> >> > > this
> >> > > > > > experiment could look like : ) ... anytime it was done is
> >> fine!
> >> Beth
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Hansen, Monica <
> >> > > > > > monica.hansen@vandals.uidaho.edu> wrote:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Beth,
> >> > > > > > > What specifically about Vygotsky's claims and the
> >> relationship
> >> > > between
> >> > > > > > > play and symbolic thought are you looking for research to
> >> > > > > substantiate? Are
> >> > > > > > > you looking for contemporary research? What kind of
> >> research?
> >> The
> >> > > path
> >> > > > > is
> >> > > > > > > not always easy or direct because Vygotsky's thoughts
> >> encompassed
> >> > > > > larger
> >> > > > > > > ideas within which a myriad of approaches to research on
> >> this
> >> topic
> >> > > > > can be
> >> > > > > > > framed and approached. At least this has been my experience
> >> in
> >> > > hunting
> >> > > > > it
> >> > > > > > > down :)
> >> > > > > > > --The other Monica
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > > > > > From: xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu [mailto:
> >> > > > > > > xmca-l-bounces@mailman.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Beth Ferholt
> >> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:06 AM
> >> > > > > > > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> >> > > > > > > Cc: xmca-l@ucsd.edu
> >> > > > > > > Subject: [Xmca-l] Play and symbolic thought --
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Monica and I have been talking about Vygotsky's work on the
> >> > > > > relationship
> >> > > > > > > between play and symbolic thought and been being challenged
> >> by
> >> > > Swedish
> >> > > > > > > preschool teachers.  Is there an experiment that shows
> >> Vygotsky was
> >> > > > > correct
> >> > > > > > > in his claims about this relationship?  We can't find any!
> >> > > > > > > Tanks,
> >> > > > > > > Beth
> >> > > > > > > --
> >> > > > > > > Beth Ferholt
> >> > > > > > > Assistant Professor
> >> > > > > > > School of Education
> >> > > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> >> > > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue
> >> > > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> >> > > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205
> >> > > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > --
> >> > > > > > Beth Ferholt
> >> > > > > > Assistant Professor
> >> > > > > > School of Education
> >> > > > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> >> > > > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue
> >> > > > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> >> > > > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205
> >> > > > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > --
> >> > > > Beth Ferholt
> >> > > > Assistant Professor
> >> > > > School of Education
> >> > > > Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> >> > > > 2900 Bedford Avenue
> >> > > > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> >> > > > Phone: (718) 951-5205
> >> > > > Fax: (718) 951-4816
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Beth Ferholt
> >> > Assistant Professor
> >> > School of Education
> >> > Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> >> > 2900 Bedford Avenue
> >> > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> >> >
> >> > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> >> > Phone: (718) 951-5205
> >> > Fax: (718) 951-4816
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Beth Ferholt
> > Assistant Professor
> > School of Education
> > Brooklyn College, City University of New York
> > 2900 Bedford Avenue
> > Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889
> >
> > Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
> > Phone: (718) 951-5205
> > Fax: (718) 951-4816
> >
> >
>
>
> Artin Goncu, Ph.D
> Professor Emeritus,
> University of Illinois at Chicago
> College of Education M/C 147
> 1040 W. Harrison St.
> Chicago, IL 60607
>
>
>


-- 
Beth Ferholt
Assistant Professor
School of Education
Brooklyn College, City University of New York
2900 Bedford Avenue
Brooklyn, NY 11210-2889

Email: bferholt@brooklyn.cuny.edu
Phone: (718) 951-5205
Fax: (718) 951-4816
Status: O