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Re: [xmca] A.A. Leontiev on his father: very sad and lamentable :))
On 24 June 2013 23:27, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
> Huw, apologize for my computer correcting huw to how in my address to you.
>
>
No problem, Larry.
I suspect this is one of those things that needs to be discovered.
Huw
>
> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > How,
> >
> > The *style* of *presentation* of disputes may be a key aspect of *facts*
> > when presented.
> > The expression "let the facts speak for themselves"
> > may under estimate the formation of facts within particular styles of
> > presentation.
> >
> > However some particular styles of presentation may be more facilitative
> of
> > double stimulation within co-ordinated projects such as collaborative
> > inquiry AS shared quests.
> > This collaborative inquiry is the *spirit* I encounter on this listserv
> > and the style of presentation as much as the facts generated [or emerging
> > from the beyond as new beginnings] is critical for its common sense of
> > inquiry AS quest.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:11 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >> It is certainly interesting to hear history disputed. I don't
> understand
> >> why it requires mocking however -- whatever one has to say is surely
> >> polluted by it.
> >>
> >> Huw
> >>
> >> On 24 June 2013 21:26, Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Very sad and lamentable indeed.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > In contrast to this ungrounded piece of hagiography and propaganda
> >> > produced the late Alexei Leontiev, fils
> >> >
> >> > see two recent works that provide nice evidence against this
> >> mythological
> >> > account of how 'zee bloody KGB'
> >> >
> >> > [virtually fully] destroyed Vygotsky and his legacy.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > 1. Contra the legend of continuity:
> >> > See the most recent paper that has just come out in the Interamerican
> >> > Journal of Psychology --
> >> >
> >> > Da relação Vigotski e Leontiev – Alguns apontamentos a respeito da
> >> > história da psicologia soviética
> >> > by Joao Batista Martins (full text available online)
> >> >
> >> > http://journals.fcla.edu/ijp/article/view/76642
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > This one is in Portuguese, but quite incidentally, a somewhat similar
> >> > publication is going to come out soon
> >> >
> >> > in English, Portuguese and Russian in the most well-known all over the
> >> > globe Russian psychological journal
> >> > PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal [ http://www.psyanima.ru/ ],
> >> fully
> >> > available online.
> >> >
> >> > If interested, don't miss the revolutionary and revisionist special
> >> issues
> >> > of this edition.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > 2. Contra the legend of the Stalinist suppresion of Vygotsky :
> >> >
> >> > See the forthcoming refutation of the piles of the age-old lies about
> >> the
> >> > "Vygotsky ban" in the groundbreaking study
> >> >
> >> > conducted most recently by young -- but very promising -- scholar Jenn
> >> > Fraser (remember this name!):
> >> >
> >> > Jenn Fraser
> >> >
> >> > Deconstructing
> >> > Vygotsky’s Victimization Narrative:
> >> > A
> >> > Re-Examination of the Stalinist “Suppression” of Vygotskian Theory
> >> >
> >> > Other than that, A.A. Leontiev's piece is a fairly entertaining and
> >> > somewhat amazing read, indeed :)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Cheers,
> >> >
> >> > AY
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ________________________________
> >> > From: Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>
> >> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >> > Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 1:39:51 PM
> >> > Subject: [xmca] A.A. Leontiev on his father
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I've had an opportunity to read the attached historical account that
> >> Haydi
> >> > sent a week or so ago (re-attached here). It's quite fascinating, too
> >> long
> >> > to reduce easily to a listserv post, but I'll try.
> >> >
> >> > The essay helps to complicate some issues that I have oversimplified
> in
> >> > the past. One of the main points of the account is to challenge the
> >> belief
> >> > that Leontiev and LSV had a severe break when Leontiev left for
> Kharkov.
> >> > The narrative I've always accepted is that Leontiev shifted away from
> >> the
> >> > ideal and toward activity, and in so doing shifted away from LSV both
> >> > professionally (and geographically) and personally. AA Leontiev's
> >> account
> >> > of his father's relationship with Vygotsky sees their departure as
> >> lacking
> >> > the hostility generally attributed to it, and also sees Vygotsky's
> work
> >> > involving the seeds of activity as a unit of analysis, thus
> challenging
> >> the
> >> > idea of a complete professional break. I think that Michael Roth tried
> >> to
> >> > persuade me that their differences were not so great, and this essay
> >> would
> >> > support that view. It's worth reading if you have interest in the
> >> > disposition of their relationship shortly before Vygotsky's death.
> >> >
> >> > The second area I found interesting (and tragic) is the idea that
> >> > Vygotsky's depression over the impending pedology decree (which
> rendered
> >> > his own work anti-Marxist and incorrect) led him to bring on his own
> >> death.
> >> > Mike Cole mentioned to me a few years ago that he thought Vygotsky
> >> allowed
> >> > himself to die rather than face the inevitable destruction of his life
> >> and
> >> > career in the Stalinist crackdown of the 1930s. This account fully
> >> supports
> >> > that perspective, with evidence of LSV's careless health habits toward
> >> the
> >> > end in spite of his delicate bodily functions (he began smoking,
> stopped
> >> > shielding himself from the Russian winters, lived in unhealthy
> >> environments
> >> > without concern for health effects). Very sad and lamentable.
> >> >
> >> > The essay concludes with the post-Vygotskian repression of his
> followers
> >> > and their shattered careers in the face of accusations of anti-Marxism
> >> and
> >> > accompanying arrests, dismissals, and deaths.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks for sharing. I'm the richer for having read it, even as my
> brief
> >> > summary here does the essay insufficient justice. p
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> ]
> >> On
> >> > Behalf Of Haydi Zulfei
> >> > Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 6:05 AM
> >> > To: "ablunden@mira.net"; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> >> > Subject: Fw: Fw: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Excuse me . I forgot to attach a son's defense of his father . Haydi
> >> > ----- Forwarded Message -----
> >> > From: Haydi Zulfei <haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>
> >> > To: "ablunden@mira.net" <ablunden@mira.net>; "eXtended Mind, Culture,
> >> > Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >> > Sent: Tuesday, 18 June 2013, 14:23:38
> >> > Subject: Re: Fw: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Dear Michael Cole
> >> > If I may , and if I might be able to have a very little talk to your
> >> > supreme greatness , and if I'm not to be reproached to have decided to
> >> > write in a foreign language , then to your benevolent permission will
> I
> >> > dare to tell you : I do know I'm not the one who can discuss such
> >> matters
> >> > with you but as everybody has reasons for their claims , I'm willing
> to
> >> > relate : USSR was gone and you were relieved of many monstrous
> maladies
> >> > there , not just of Stalinism , the destruction of which and whom is
> the
> >> > unique slogan of the whole world , but also of Leninism , Marxism (to
> >> which
> >> > Vygotsky credited his time and energy) , ... , and especially of the
> >> dark
> >> > terrible atmosphere in which you , of your own decision and care and
> >> desire
> >> > , with wife and children or child , could gaspingly and suffocatedly
> >> > breathe , live , learn , get skilled and ... become the Global Figure
> >> > (Yasnitsky in LiveJournal) mostly because of the knowledge and wit and
> >> > wisdom (professionally) you
> >> > got there of the [Marxian] [Materialistic] [Vygotskian] [School] and
> the
> >> > much-appreciated works you did later in THIS respect . You were not
> with
> >> > the common people ; you were with the [Great Scholars] of that time
> >> WITHIN
> >> > THE SOVIET UNION , no need to mention the Names , as for one of them
> the
> >> > Poor Bratus you denounced shortly recently .
> >> > The knowledge accumulated within the body or psyche of , or , as you
> >> like
> >> > to say , the 'spirit' or the soul of these renown scholars came ONLY
> >> from
> >> > their MOTHERS and from the Uteros thereof ? or from the Tsar ? After
> >> all ,
> >> > you always refer to the one experiment according to which 'culture'
> >> > accumulates and then exits through the Uterus . Just one question
> >> remains :
> >> > why tolerate so much toiling and troubles going there ? The Land of
> >> Ghosts
> >> > and Man-Eater Dragons ? Are not great figures products of their time
> and
> >> > environment (Revolution meant) ? Mourning is still on for the Huge
> >> Losses
> >> > but this is just one side of the coin !
> >> > Now , very shortly , you are Ok with all your assertions and beliefs .
> >> Why
> >> > so much focusing on the Dead and not on the Living ?? What is your
> >> > PRESCRIPTION for the unprecedented huge numerous incalculable
> >> > inhumanitarian soul-exterminatig vicious maladies , vices , and
> >> > beast-natured acts of the American Adminstration and their
> profiteering
> >> > Mother-and-Daughter CORPORATIONS all over the world (apologies to
> great
> >> > American people) , MONOPOLIES , COHORTS , BEN-LADIN BEARING OCTOPUSES
> ,
> >> > ETC. ETC. ETC.
> >> > WE ARE JUST VICTIMS TO SANCTIONS IMPOSED ON 'PEOPLE' NOT
> ADMINISTRATION
> >> .
> >> > WE ARE BEING SANDWICHED AND STAMPED UNDER TERROR , CRUELTY AND THE
> >> > OTHERNESS?- MEDDLING WITH OUR OWN AFFAIRS ; WE JUST SHOWED OUR WILL ,
> >> WAY
> >> > AND FATE BUT GRANDPA? IS ALIEN AND KILLER TO HOMO SAPIENS GENUS , LET
> >> ALONE
> >> > , WISE CONSCIOUS DIGNIFIED PEACEFUL CREATURES .
> >> > It's the same with people of Egypt , Jordon , Libya , Turkey , Iraq ,
> >> > Afghanistan , etc. From the American Administration perspective , what
> >> > might partially ? be a Spring Time is within the Arabian Peninsula .
> >> There
> >> > , too , heads go off the air with a sword so that extra cheap oil can
> >> > overflow within the storage huge bankers of the U.S. Better handle
> >> nearby
> >> > Problems !!
> >> > Best
> >> > Haydi
> >> >
> >> > Request : no naming of nationales , thanks !
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ________________________________
> >> > From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> >> > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <
> >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >> > Sent: Tuesday, 18 June 2013, 9:59:46
> >> > Subject: Re: Fw: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Just on the question of Luria, Mike. I am not all that familiar with
> >> > Luria's distinct contribution, for which I have only myself plus
> having
> >> > only one lifetime to blame. But if he is famous for the use of the
> >> > *idiographic* methodology, then as I see it that is indeed something
> >> which
> >> > dates from Goethe, and I have never particularly highlighted that in
> my
> >> own
> >> > work. The Urphaenomen is another aspect of Romantic Science. So these
> >> are
> >> > different things, closely related and having the same roots. Maybe it
> is
> >> > time for me to use the great Luria On-line Library you have created to
> >> > educate myself about Luria.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Andy
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > mike cole wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > I fear this does not help me a whole lot, Andy.
> >> >
> >> > > Sorry I cannot grasp the method of Goethe properly. I guess Luria
> >> > probably failed
> >> >
> >> > > as well. Or maybe he succeeded and I have misunderstood him?
> Entirely
> >> > possible.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > I did not ask what what is at odds. I asked for what the empirical
> >> > consequences of the the distinctions you are making are. I cannot
> follow
> >> > the path to reforming all of the educational system of the USSR or
> >> Russia,
> >> > which, so far as I know, neither
> >> >
> >> > > Vygotsky nor anyone else associated with Activity Theory every
> >> > accomplished. Nore have I ever seen claims that they have. (The Finns
> >> > appear to have done well recently using an approach, the relationship
> to
> >> > activity theory I have no knowledge of, but perhaps our Finnish
> >> colleagues
> >> > do).
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > Here is what would help me, and I suspect others on XMCA. Take an
> >> > already published piece of work that uses the expanded triangle Yrjo
> >> > proposes in Learning by Expanding. Say, the work on cleaners in the
> >> early
> >> > work. Tell us about the mistaken conclusions that arise because of
> >> > misunderstandings that confusion of the triangle for "activity" (no
> >> > modifiers) causes. Suggest how we might improve our
> >> >
> >> > > understanding. Or tell us why that example works, but some other
> >> example
> >> > (teachers in schools, nurses and doctors in a hospital, etc.) does
> not.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > Or suggest an entirely different way of looking at matters so that
> >> when
> >> > we go into
> >> >
> >> > > classrooms, housing projects, work places, we can more effectively
> >> > understand what is going on and be of more help to those with whom we
> >> work
> >> > that publishing another article in MCA.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > I guess I am asking that you rise to the concrete here, keeping the
> >> > object of analysis constant.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > My apologies if this seems unreasonable. Perhaps it is approaching
> >> > senility, but
> >> >
> >> > > I am failing to track you.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > mike
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > Lost in the words here.
> >> >
> >> > > mike
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> >> <mailto:
> >> > ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > Yes, in Yjro's (1986) words, it is a "root model". (The
> derivation
> >> >
> >> > > of it is a beautiful piece of work, too, close to Hegel's early
> >> >
> >> > > "System of Ethical Life". Deserves to remain in print).
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > But modelling a complex process is not the same as the method of
> >> >
> >> > > Goethe, Hegel, Marx and Vygotsky. As you know, Mike, in order to
> >> >
> >> > > understand this approach, which Luria called Romantic Science, I
> >> >
> >> > > had to go back to its origins c. 1787 when Goethe was doing his
> >> >
> >> > > Journey in Italy, studying all the plant life, and its variation
> >> >
> >> > > by altitude, latittude, nearness to the sea, etc., and in
> >> >
> >> > > conversation with J G Herder, arrived a his conception of
> >> >
> >> > > Urphaenomen. The Urphaenomen is not a model.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > It is an abstraction, true. And yes, the understanding of a
> >> >
> >> > > complex process by the "romantic" method is indeed, the rising
> to
> >> >
> >> > > the concrete, the logical-historical reconstruction of the whole
> >> >
> >> > > process from this abstract germ.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > As I remarked (somewhere) I find Yrjo's work over the past
> couple
> >> >
> >> > > of years, which focuses more on the germ cell than the triangle,
> >> >
> >> > > closer to what I am trying to do. The germ cell is not a model
> >> > either.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > What is at odds here is whether a real, complex situation (such
> as
> >> >
> >> > > reforming the education system in a nation in Africa, rather
> than
> >> >
> >> > > in the USSR or Finland) can be based on a conception which
> >> >
> >> > > isolates a "system of activity", whilst dozens of different
> >> >
> >> > > ethnic groups, NGOs, government(s), trade unions and so on, are
> >> >
> >> > > all contesting the aims and benefits of "education." Every
> person
> >> >
> >> > > in such a situation is committed to more than one project, and
> >> >
> >> > > deploys concepts (institutionalised projects) frequently at odds
> >> >
> >> > > with one another. What is needed is a process whose basic units
> >> >
> >> > > are (1) units and not systems, and (2) processes of development,
> >> >
> >> > > processes in which people are struggling to realise ideas,
> >> >
> >> > > processes of formation. And we need the algebra through which
> such
> >> >
> >> > > units interact with one another, rather than declaring any
> single
> >> >
> >> > > such interaction to be an entire new "unit" - i.e. coupled
> >> systems.
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > Andy
> >> >
> >> > > mike cole wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > Isn't the trangle a "model, " Andy? A model of the root
> >> >
> >> > > metaphor. Still an abstraction... waiting to see if it can
> >> >
> >> > > rise to the concrete? Perhaps?
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > Empirically speaking, what is at odds here? For whom?
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > > mike
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > __________________________________________
> >> >
> >> > _____
> >> >
> >> > xmca mailing list
> >> >
> >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> >
> >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> > __________________________________________
> >> > _____
> >> > xmca mailing list
> >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> > __________________________________________
> >> > _____
> >> > xmca mailing list
> >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >> >
> >> __________________________________________
> >> _____
> >> xmca mailing list
> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>
> >
> >
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