[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
Re: [xmca] A.A. Leontiev on his father: very sad and lamentable :))
Huw, apologize for my computer correcting huw to how in my address to you.
On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
> How,
>
> The *style* of *presentation* of disputes may be a key aspect of *facts*
> when presented.
> The expression "let the facts speak for themselves"
> may under estimate the formation of facts within particular styles of
> presentation.
>
> However some particular styles of presentation may be more facilitative of
> double stimulation within co-ordinated projects such as collaborative
> inquiry AS shared quests.
> This collaborative inquiry is the *spirit* I encounter on this listserv
> and the style of presentation as much as the facts generated [or emerging
> from the beyond as new beginnings] is critical for its common sense of
> inquiry AS quest.
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:11 PM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> It is certainly interesting to hear history disputed. I don't understand
>> why it requires mocking however -- whatever one has to say is surely
>> polluted by it.
>>
>> Huw
>>
>> On 24 June 2013 21:26, Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Very sad and lamentable indeed.
>> >
>> >
>> > In contrast to this ungrounded piece of hagiography and propaganda
>> > produced the late Alexei Leontiev, fils
>> >
>> > see two recent works that provide nice evidence against this
>> mythological
>> > account of how 'zee bloody KGB'
>> >
>> > [virtually fully] destroyed Vygotsky and his legacy.
>> >
>> >
>> > 1. Contra the legend of continuity:
>> > See the most recent paper that has just come out in the Interamerican
>> > Journal of Psychology --
>> >
>> > Da relação Vigotski e Leontiev – Alguns apontamentos a respeito da
>> > história da psicologia soviética
>> > by Joao Batista Martins (full text available online)
>> >
>> > http://journals.fcla.edu/ijp/article/view/76642
>> >
>> >
>> > This one is in Portuguese, but quite incidentally, a somewhat similar
>> > publication is going to come out soon
>> >
>> > in English, Portuguese and Russian in the most well-known all over the
>> > globe Russian psychological journal
>> > PsyAnima, Dubna Psychological Journal [ http://www.psyanima.ru/ ],
>> fully
>> > available online.
>> >
>> > If interested, don't miss the revolutionary and revisionist special
>> issues
>> > of this edition.
>> >
>> >
>> > 2. Contra the legend of the Stalinist suppresion of Vygotsky :
>> >
>> > See the forthcoming refutation of the piles of the age-old lies about
>> the
>> > "Vygotsky ban" in the groundbreaking study
>> >
>> > conducted most recently by young -- but very promising -- scholar Jenn
>> > Fraser (remember this name!):
>> >
>> > Jenn Fraser
>> >
>> > Deconstructing
>> > Vygotsky’s Victimization Narrative:
>> > A
>> > Re-Examination of the Stalinist “Suppression” of Vygotskian Theory
>> >
>> > Other than that, A.A. Leontiev's piece is a fairly entertaining and
>> > somewhat amazing read, indeed :)
>> >
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > AY
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: Peter Smagorinsky <smago@uga.edu>
>> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> > Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 1:39:51 PM
>> > Subject: [xmca] A.A. Leontiev on his father
>> >
>> >
>> > I've had an opportunity to read the attached historical account that
>> Haydi
>> > sent a week or so ago (re-attached here). It's quite fascinating, too
>> long
>> > to reduce easily to a listserv post, but I'll try.
>> >
>> > The essay helps to complicate some issues that I have oversimplified in
>> > the past. One of the main points of the account is to challenge the
>> belief
>> > that Leontiev and LSV had a severe break when Leontiev left for Kharkov.
>> > The narrative I've always accepted is that Leontiev shifted away from
>> the
>> > ideal and toward activity, and in so doing shifted away from LSV both
>> > professionally (and geographically) and personally. AA Leontiev's
>> account
>> > of his father's relationship with Vygotsky sees their departure as
>> lacking
>> > the hostility generally attributed to it, and also sees Vygotsky's work
>> > involving the seeds of activity as a unit of analysis, thus challenging
>> the
>> > idea of a complete professional break. I think that Michael Roth tried
>> to
>> > persuade me that their differences were not so great, and this essay
>> would
>> > support that view. It's worth reading if you have interest in the
>> > disposition of their relationship shortly before Vygotsky's death.
>> >
>> > The second area I found interesting (and tragic) is the idea that
>> > Vygotsky's depression over the impending pedology decree (which rendered
>> > his own work anti-Marxist and incorrect) led him to bring on his own
>> death.
>> > Mike Cole mentioned to me a few years ago that he thought Vygotsky
>> allowed
>> > himself to die rather than face the inevitable destruction of his life
>> and
>> > career in the Stalinist crackdown of the 1930s. This account fully
>> supports
>> > that perspective, with evidence of LSV's careless health habits toward
>> the
>> > end in spite of his delicate bodily functions (he began smoking, stopped
>> > shielding himself from the Russian winters, lived in unhealthy
>> environments
>> > without concern for health effects). Very sad and lamentable.
>> >
>> > The essay concludes with the post-Vygotskian repression of his followers
>> > and their shattered careers in the face of accusations of anti-Marxism
>> and
>> > accompanying arrests, dismissals, and deaths.
>> >
>> > Thanks for sharing. I'm the richer for having read it, even as my brief
>> > summary here does the essay insufficient justice. p
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>> On
>> > Behalf Of Haydi Zulfei
>> > Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 6:05 AM
>> > To: "ablunden@mira.net"; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
>> > Subject: Fw: Fw: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Excuse me . I forgot to attach a son's defense of his father . Haydi
>> > ----- Forwarded Message -----
>> > From: Haydi Zulfei <haydizulfei@rocketmail.com>
>> > To: "ablunden@mira.net" <ablunden@mira.net>; "eXtended Mind, Culture,
>> > Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, 18 June 2013, 14:23:38
>> > Subject: Re: Fw: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Dear Michael Cole
>> > If I may , and if I might be able to have a very little talk to your
>> > supreme greatness , and if I'm not to be reproached to have decided to
>> > write in a foreign language , then to your benevolent permission will I
>> > dare to tell you : I do know I'm not the one who can discuss such
>> matters
>> > with you but as everybody has reasons for their claims , I'm willing to
>> > relate : USSR was gone and you were relieved of many monstrous maladies
>> > there , not just of Stalinism , the destruction of which and whom is the
>> > unique slogan of the whole world , but also of Leninism , Marxism (to
>> which
>> > Vygotsky credited his time and energy) , ... , and especially of the
>> dark
>> > terrible atmosphere in which you , of your own decision and care and
>> desire
>> > , with wife and children or child , could gaspingly and suffocatedly
>> > breathe , live , learn , get skilled and ... become the Global Figure
>> > (Yasnitsky in LiveJournal) mostly because of the knowledge and wit and
>> > wisdom (professionally) you
>> > got there of the [Marxian] [Materialistic] [Vygotskian] [School] and the
>> > much-appreciated works you did later in THIS respect . You were not with
>> > the common people ; you were with the [Great Scholars] of that time
>> WITHIN
>> > THE SOVIET UNION , no need to mention the Names , as for one of them the
>> > Poor Bratus you denounced shortly recently .
>> > The knowledge accumulated within the body or psyche of , or , as you
>> like
>> > to say , the 'spirit' or the soul of these renown scholars came ONLY
>> from
>> > their MOTHERS and from the Uteros thereof ? or from the Tsar ? After
>> all ,
>> > you always refer to the one experiment according to which 'culture'
>> > accumulates and then exits through the Uterus . Just one question
>> remains :
>> > why tolerate so much toiling and troubles going there ? The Land of
>> Ghosts
>> > and Man-Eater Dragons ? Are not great figures products of their time and
>> > environment (Revolution meant) ? Mourning is still on for the Huge
>> Losses
>> > but this is just one side of the coin !
>> > Now , very shortly , you are Ok with all your assertions and beliefs .
>> Why
>> > so much focusing on the Dead and not on the Living ?? What is your
>> > PRESCRIPTION for the unprecedented huge numerous incalculable
>> > inhumanitarian soul-exterminatig vicious maladies , vices , and
>> > beast-natured acts of the American Adminstration and their profiteering
>> > Mother-and-Daughter CORPORATIONS all over the world (apologies to great
>> > American people) , MONOPOLIES , COHORTS , BEN-LADIN BEARING OCTOPUSES ,
>> > ETC. ETC. ETC.
>> > WE ARE JUST VICTIMS TO SANCTIONS IMPOSED ON 'PEOPLE' NOT ADMINISTRATION
>> .
>> > WE ARE BEING SANDWICHED AND STAMPED UNDER TERROR , CRUELTY AND THE
>> > OTHERNESS?- MEDDLING WITH OUR OWN AFFAIRS ; WE JUST SHOWED OUR WILL ,
>> WAY
>> > AND FATE BUT GRANDPA? IS ALIEN AND KILLER TO HOMO SAPIENS GENUS , LET
>> ALONE
>> > , WISE CONSCIOUS DIGNIFIED PEACEFUL CREATURES .
>> > It's the same with people of Egypt , Jordon , Libya , Turkey , Iraq ,
>> > Afghanistan , etc. From the American Administration perspective , what
>> > might partially ? be a Spring Time is within the Arabian Peninsula .
>> There
>> > , too , heads go off the air with a sword so that extra cheap oil can
>> > overflow within the storage huge bankers of the U.S. Better handle
>> nearby
>> > Problems !!
>> > Best
>> > Haydi
>> >
>> > Request : no naming of nationales , thanks !
>> >
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
>> > To: lchcmike@gmail.com; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <
>> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, 18 June 2013, 9:59:46
>> > Subject: Re: Fw: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Just on the question of Luria, Mike. I am not all that familiar with
>> > Luria's distinct contribution, for which I have only myself plus having
>> > only one lifetime to blame. But if he is famous for the use of the
>> > *idiographic* methodology, then as I see it that is indeed something
>> which
>> > dates from Goethe, and I have never particularly highlighted that in my
>> own
>> > work. The Urphaenomen is another aspect of Romantic Science. So these
>> are
>> > different things, closely related and having the same roots. Maybe it is
>> > time for me to use the great Luria On-line Library you have created to
>> > educate myself about Luria.
>> >
>> >
>> > Andy
>> >
>> >
>> > mike cole wrote:
>> >
>> > > I fear this does not help me a whole lot, Andy.
>> >
>> > > Sorry I cannot grasp the method of Goethe properly. I guess Luria
>> > probably failed
>> >
>> > > as well. Or maybe he succeeded and I have misunderstood him? Entirely
>> > possible.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > I did not ask what what is at odds. I asked for what the empirical
>> > consequences of the the distinctions you are making are. I cannot follow
>> > the path to reforming all of the educational system of the USSR or
>> Russia,
>> > which, so far as I know, neither
>> >
>> > > Vygotsky nor anyone else associated with Activity Theory every
>> > accomplished. Nore have I ever seen claims that they have. (The Finns
>> > appear to have done well recently using an approach, the relationship to
>> > activity theory I have no knowledge of, but perhaps our Finnish
>> colleagues
>> > do).
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Here is what would help me, and I suspect others on XMCA. Take an
>> > already published piece of work that uses the expanded triangle Yrjo
>> > proposes in Learning by Expanding. Say, the work on cleaners in the
>> early
>> > work. Tell us about the mistaken conclusions that arise because of
>> > misunderstandings that confusion of the triangle for "activity" (no
>> > modifiers) causes. Suggest how we might improve our
>> >
>> > > understanding. Or tell us why that example works, but some other
>> example
>> > (teachers in schools, nurses and doctors in a hospital, etc.) does not.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Or suggest an entirely different way of looking at matters so that
>> when
>> > we go into
>> >
>> > > classrooms, housing projects, work places, we can more effectively
>> > understand what is going on and be of more help to those with whom we
>> work
>> > that publishing another article in MCA.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > I guess I am asking that you rise to the concrete here, keeping the
>> > object of analysis constant.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > My apologies if this seems unreasonable. Perhaps it is approaching
>> > senility, but
>> >
>> > > I am failing to track you.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > mike
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Lost in the words here.
>> >
>> > > mike
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>> <mailto:
>> > ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Yes, in Yjro's (1986) words, it is a "root model". (The derivation
>> >
>> > > of it is a beautiful piece of work, too, close to Hegel's early
>> >
>> > > "System of Ethical Life". Deserves to remain in print).
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > But modelling a complex process is not the same as the method of
>> >
>> > > Goethe, Hegel, Marx and Vygotsky. As you know, Mike, in order to
>> >
>> > > understand this approach, which Luria called Romantic Science, I
>> >
>> > > had to go back to its origins c. 1787 when Goethe was doing his
>> >
>> > > Journey in Italy, studying all the plant life, and its variation
>> >
>> > > by altitude, latittude, nearness to the sea, etc., and in
>> >
>> > > conversation with J G Herder, arrived a his conception of
>> >
>> > > Urphaenomen. The Urphaenomen is not a model.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > It is an abstraction, true. And yes, the understanding of a
>> >
>> > > complex process by the "romantic" method is indeed, the rising to
>> >
>> > > the concrete, the logical-historical reconstruction of the whole
>> >
>> > > process from this abstract germ.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > As I remarked (somewhere) I find Yrjo's work over the past couple
>> >
>> > > of years, which focuses more on the germ cell than the triangle,
>> >
>> > > closer to what I am trying to do. The germ cell is not a model
>> > either.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > What is at odds here is whether a real, complex situation (such as
>> >
>> > > reforming the education system in a nation in Africa, rather than
>> >
>> > > in the USSR or Finland) can be based on a conception which
>> >
>> > > isolates a "system of activity", whilst dozens of different
>> >
>> > > ethnic groups, NGOs, government(s), trade unions and so on, are
>> >
>> > > all contesting the aims and benefits of "education." Every person
>> >
>> > > in such a situation is committed to more than one project, and
>> >
>> > > deploys concepts (institutionalised projects) frequently at odds
>> >
>> > > with one another. What is needed is a process whose basic units
>> >
>> > > are (1) units and not systems, and (2) processes of development,
>> >
>> > > processes in which people are struggling to realise ideas,
>> >
>> > > processes of formation. And we need the algebra through which such
>> >
>> > > units interact with one another, rather than declaring any single
>> >
>> > > such interaction to be an entire new "unit" - i.e. coupled
>> systems.
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Andy
>> >
>> > > mike cole wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Isn't the trangle a "model, " Andy? A model of the root
>> >
>> > > metaphor. Still an abstraction... waiting to see if it can
>> >
>> > > rise to the concrete? Perhaps?
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > Empirically speaking, what is at odds here? For whom?
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> > > mike
>> >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > __________________________________________
>> >
>> > _____
>> >
>> > xmca mailing list
>> >
>> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> >
>> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > __________________________________________
>> > _____
>> > xmca mailing list
>> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> > __________________________________________
>> > _____
>> > xmca mailing list
>> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>> >
>> __________________________________________
>> _____
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>
>
__________________________________________
_____
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca