Re: Fw: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?

[Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>]

Andy, your article on Vygotsky's unit of analysis [the general in the
particular] contrasted with the particular [in its ideographic
concreteness] is an excellent source, However, the Wikipedia article
captures the multiple transformations and expansion AS a
cultural-historical perspective that was intriguing.
larry


On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 6:30 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:

> Andy,
>
> As I read through this article on THE system concept [or system
> concepts?] I was reflecting on the process of the *development* of a
> concept, using the term *system* as an example of this developmental
> process through time. The transformation and expansion of the concept since
> 1945 has been breathtaking and the way it has risen to the concrete is
> phenomenal.
>
> Is there a similar article which *defines* the concept of *unit of
> analysis* and the expansion of this concept through time?
>
> This approach used in the Wikipedia article seems to be an effective
> strategy for *grasping* a concept [such as *system* or *unit of analysis*]
>
> Thanks Andy for this Wikipedia source.
>
> larry
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 11:20 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>
>> Antti, here is a link to th eWikipedia on "System concept"
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**System<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System>
>> Why do Activity Theorists in Engstrom's current of thinking mix up the
>> idea of a system concept with a unit of analysis?
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>> Antti Rajala wrote:
>>
>>> Greg,
>>>
>>> You asked:
>>> ”My question is getting at where we locate "agency". In individuals
>>> alone?
>>> Or as possibly being distributed among multiple people and perhaps in
>>> amanner that isn't recognizable to the individual. But maybe there is
>>> aconcept for that that is different from "double stimulation.”
>>>
>>> I think that double stimulation can be analyzed not only at the
>>> individual
>>> level but at the collective level as well. Actually, the study of
>>> Engeström
>>> and Sannino (2013) that I referred to in my earlier email gives a nice
>>> example. The study also involves in some respects a similar situation as
>>> the one that you described having taken place with the workers in
>>> Malaysia.
>>>
>>> According to my reading, the study describes a change laboratory
>>> intervention taking place in a university library. The library as invited
>>> researchers to help them find new forms of work with research groups. A
>>> first stimulus emerges in the course of the change laboratory
>>> intervention,
>>> as a member of one of the research groups that the university library is
>>> delivering services says that they can find these services in the
>>> internet
>>> without the help of the library. Thus a problem emerges for the
>>> librarians
>>> to collectively produce a service that would be genuinely helpful for the
>>> research groups.
>>>
>>> In solving this problem, they organize their collective action with the
>>> help of a second stimulus, namely the concept of knotworking (Engeström,
>>> Engeström & Vähäaho, 1999) that the researchers have introduced in the
>>> beginning of the change laboratory. In particular, a new working group, a
>>> knot, is formed that starts to work with the emergent problem of
>>> inventing
>>> a useful service.
>>>
>>> What is in my opinion very innovative, Engeström and Sannino also provide
>>> an example of this second stimulus, the concept of knotworking, becoming
>>> an
>>> initial theoretical generalization that is reworked and enriched through
>>> a
>>> process of ascending from abstract to concrete as the intervention
>>> evolves.
>>> Specifically, in the end of the intervention, the concept of knotworking
>>> gives rise to many concrete, practical applications of the librarians'
>>> work
>>> at multiple levels of hierarchy.
>>>
>>> As for the unit of analysis, I think that the unit of analysis in the
>>> study
>>> is the intersection of several activity systems, the university libarary
>>> and the research groups, In terms of agency, one can maybe talk about
>>> shared transformative agency in which the subject is not an individual
>>> but
>>> a collective. (More about shared transformative agency, see Virkkunen’s
>>> paper in http://www.activites.org/v3n1/**v3n1.book.pdf#page=43<http://www.activites.org/v3n1/v3n1.book.pdf#page=43>
>>> )
>>>
>>> Best wishes, Antti
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 6:57 PM, <ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> forgot to send this to XMCA
>>>>
>>>> -----Forwarded by ERIC RAMBERG/spps on 06/06/2013 10:56AM -----
>>>> To: ablunden@mira.net
>>>> From: ERIC RAMBERG/spps
>>>> Date: 06/06/2013 09:05AM
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>>>>
>>>> True true, the history of philosophy does lead there Andy.  But that
>>>> leads
>>>> to my trepidations regarding ideology lacking in practice.
>>>>
>>>> What substance within conscious formation is measurable?
>>>>
>>>> I believe that answer has yet to be found
>>>> perhaps?
>>>>
>>>> eric
>>>>
>>>> -----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.**edu <xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>wrote: -----
>>>>  To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>> From: Andy Blunden
>>>> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>> Date: 06/05/2013 08:42PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>>>>
>>>> Eric,
>>>> By posiing the problem as that of the Kantian dilemma, of unifying two
>>>> disparate abstractions, you determine the answer as from the history of
>>>> philosophy and the answer is Hegel's answer: "a formation of
>>>> consciousness" or Gestalt des Bewusstsein.
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>>
>>>> ERIC.RAMBERG@spps.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I believe that this discussion needs to involve "unit of analysis" for
>>>>> what it is that provides the mediational method.
>>>>> What unit of study can properly encapsulate that which is being
>>>>> observed?
>>>>> Activity? Concept? Word? Mirror Neuron?
>>>>> Oh my what a great temptest LSV did let out of the teapot
>>>>> eric
>>>>>
>>>>> -----xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.**edu <xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>wrote: -----
>>>>> To: "xmca@weber.ucsd.edu" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>>> From: Achilles Delari Junior
>>>>> Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>> Date: 06/05/2013 07:04AM
>>>>> Subject: RE: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure, Greg,
>>>>> Well, seems to me that "draw analogies between different domains of
>>>>> their worlds" is closer to "meaning construction" than to choice a
>>>>> "stimulus medium" to help memory tasks, for instance. The "double
>>>>> stimulation" is fine because introduces a kind of mediation between a
>>>>> stimulus and our response to the stimulus. But, following Vygotsky's
>>>>> formulations at that time this new series of "stimulus" (a nude, a
>>>>> word, etc) act also as a stimulus, a conditioned one. If you change
>>>>> you paradigm to the proposition that all sign implies any kind of
>>>>> "generalization process" (meaning) that differs in their structure and
>>>>> has a genetic construction (see the studies about concepts, for
>>>>> instance), a sign could not be only a second series of stimuli ruled
>>>>> by the same laws that a conditional reflex... As in "Instrumental
>>>>> method": S-------X-------R. Where the relation S---------R is a direct
>>>>> stimulus response relationship, but when you introduce a second series
>>>>> of stimulus "X" (double stimulation) you have an indirect stimulus
>>>>> response relationship, but the relation between S and X, and X and R
>>>>> remain a conditioned reflex relationship... "Draw analogies between
>>>>> different domains of our worlds" seem to mean that we are in transit
>>>>> between different words of signification, and culture is a human
>>>>> production that involves the "generalization" from a world to another,
>>>>> broader, maybe not exactly more precise, but "broader", in my opinion.
>>>>> I don't know...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "In natural memory a direct associative (conditional reflex)
>>>>> connection A?B is established between two stimuli A and B. In
>>>>> artificial, mnemotechnic memory of the same impression, by means of a
>>>>> psychological tool X (a knot in a handkerchief, a mnemonic scheme)
>>>>> instead of the direct connection A?B two new ones are established: A?X
>>>>> and X?B Just like the connection A?B each of them is a natural
>>>>> conditional reflex process, determined, by the properties of the brain
>>>>> tissue. What is new, artificial, and instrumental is the fact of the
>>>>> replacement of one connection A?B by two connections: A?X and X?B They
>>>>> lead to the same result, but by a different path. What is new is the
>>>>> artificial direction which the instrument gives to the natural process
>>>>> of establishing a conditional connection, i.e., the active utilization
>>>>> of the natural properties of brain tissue." Vygotsky "The Instumental
>>>>> Method" (this is 1930)
>>>>> http://www.marxists.org/**archive/vygotsky/works/1930/**
>>>>> instrumental.htm<http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1930/instrumental.htm>
>>>>>
>>>>> But already in 1928:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Let us now compare the natural and cultural mnemonics of a child. The
>>>>> relation between the two forms can be graphically expressed by means
>>>>> of a triangle: in case of natural memorization a direct associative or
>>>>> conditional reflexive connection is set up between two points, A and
>>>>> B. In case of mnemotechnical memorization, utilizing some sign,
>>>>> instead of one associative connection AB, the others are set up AX and
>>>>> BX, which bring us to the same result, but in a roundabout way. Each
>>>>> of these connections AX and BX is the same kind of
>>>>> conditional-reflexive process of connection as AB." Vygotsky (1928)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.marxists.org/**archive/vygotsky/works/1929/**
>>>> cultural_development.htm<http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1929/cultural_development.htm>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> See: "AX and BX is the same kind of conditional-reflexive process of
>>>>> connection as AB." --> The same kind... This paradigm will not be the
>>>>> same in 1933-34...
>>>>>
>>>>> "(Introduction: the importance of the sign; its social meaning). In
>>>>> older works we ignored that the sign has meaning. < But there is “a
>>>>> time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together”
>>>>> (Ecclesiastes). > We proceeded from the principle of the constancy of
>>>>> meaning, we discounted meaning. But the problem of meaning was already
>>>>> present in the older investigations. Whereas before our task was to
>>>>> demonstrate what “the knot” and logical memory have in common, now our
>>>>> task is to demonstrate the difference that exists between them.From
>>>>> our works it follows that the sign changes the interfunctional
>>>>> relationships." (Vygotsky, 1933-34)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.marxists.org/**archive/vygotsky/works/1934/**
>>>> problem-consciousness.htm<http://www.marxists.org/archive/vygotsky/works/1934/problem-consciousness.htm>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> And now?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Achilles.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 18:31:23 -0600
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>>>>>> From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
>>>>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Achilles,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sounded interesting, but I'm not sure I followed you completely. You
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> say
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> that Strathern's quote seems like it has a broader application that
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> "double
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> stimulation", but I could use some help with the rest of your message.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you have a few minutes, maybe you could try rephrasing?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -greg
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Achilles Delari Junior <
>>>>>> achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my undertanding, this is very broader and more powerful than
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> double
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  stimulation... Double stimulation could be overcoming with another
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> way for
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> think signs than "medium stimulus" - See "The problem of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> consciousness"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> (1933-34), for instance. The more important will be not the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> similarity
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  between a nude and a word, but their difference, "before was
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> forgotten that
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> sign had a meaning" and "now" the meaning must be take in account.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Double
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> stimulation, in my understanding, do not resists to this new point
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> of view.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Achilles.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 06:19:04 -0600
>>>>>>>> From: greg.a.thompson@gmail.com
>>>>>>>> To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu; lchcmike@gmail.com;
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> antti.rajala@helsinki.fi
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>  CC:
>>>>>>>> Subject: [xmca] Double Stimulation?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wonder if this quote by Marilyn Strathern can be productively
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> connected
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>  (not necessarily geneaologically, but ideologically) to the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> notion of
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>  "double stimulation" (which I am just now trying to figure out):
>>>>>>>> "Culture consists in the way people draw analogies between
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> different
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  domains of their worlds" (1992: 47).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -greg
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>>>>>>> Visiting Assistant Professor
>>>>>>>> Department of Anthropology
>>>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>>>>>>> Brigham Young University
>>>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/**GregoryThompson<http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>
>>>>>>>> ______________________________**____________
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>>>>> Visiting Assistant Professor
>>>>>> Department of Anthropology
>>>>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>>>>> Brigham Young University
>>>>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>>>>> http://byu.academia.edu/**GregoryThompson<http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>
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>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>>>> ------------
>>>> *Andy Blunden*
>>>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>>>> http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
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>>
>> --
>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>> ------------
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>> http://marxists.academia.edu/**AndyBlunden<http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden>
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