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Re: [xmca] The problem of exegesis without methods for study meaning.
Dear Friends,
Can anyone help me with articles, journals, eBook and other personal papers
on:
1. History of Baptist Christianity
2. History of Charismatic Movement
Thank you
Lemwang Chuhwanglim
On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 1:23 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Mike, and XMCA.
> This remember the problems with Bible interpretation and the enormous
> effort of the "Doctors of Church" to indicate the "correct way" for read
> the Holy Scriptures... Unfortunately, we have only the apocrypha versions
> in our hand and then we must few shamed in read it. We must wait the
> "Doctors of Church", with some kind of "method of analysis of meaning" that
> following the same Doctors "does nos exist" (this is noteworthy), make a
> Council, Illuminate by the Holy Ghost (there is no scientific method to
> understand meaning), in order to establish the "True version" and/or the
> only "correct meaning"!!! In time: On the own footnotes of the edition of
> "The problems of consciousness" it was explicit the *codification* about
> were and when there was literal words from Vigotski and the notes by his
> colleagues who *listened* to him, that was direct auricular witness.
> Remembering that several other texts was not wrote directly by Vygotsky,
> but transcribed from stenographic notes of his oral presentations ("The
> problem of environment", "Paedology conferences", etc. etc.)... Then,
> perhaps Vygotsky's works was only a KGB invention to confusing westerns
> capitalist researchers. In contrary this clerical exegetical trend and the
> "conspiratorial hypothesis" improbable trend, I understand that we must to
> recognize that understand Vygotsky, through the fragments he leaves to us,
> is a kind of "archaeological" work... If you have only some clues you must
> think through *abduction* -- in Peirce's terms, and pay the price of this:
> don't make so categorical and/or dogmatic claims about. Even more, I can
> make one more blasphemy and ask: how can somebody exclude abduction from
> any psychological and historical research?
>
>
> Achilles.
>
> > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 21:11:49 -0700
> > Subject: Re: RES: [xmca] Vygotskii-Lewin as gestaltists and the critics
> of gestaltism in '30s
> > To: the_yasya@yahoo.com; xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > CC:
> >
> > notorious and shameful!! Wow.
> > mike
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 6:35 PM, Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com
> >wrote:
> >
> > > "The text" -- which one?
> > >
> > >
> > > If this is "The problem of consciousness", then its first appearance
> is in
> > > a volume "Psikhologiia grammatiki"
> > > (The psychology of grammar). Moscow: Izdatel'stvo MGU, 1968 (edited by
> > > A.A. Leontiev and T.V. Riabova).
> > >
> > > The second edition in the notiorous and shameful Collected Works of
> > > Vygotskii in 6 volumes,
> > > the one later translated into English (6 vols.) and Spanish (5 vols.).
> > >
> > > If you are asking about some other text, Joao, please, clarify which
> one
> > > of those mentioned along the thread.
> > >
> > >
> > > AY
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Joao Martins <jbmartin@sercomtel.com.br>
> > > To: 'Anton Yasnitsky' <the_yasya@yahoo.com>; "'eXtended Mind, Culture,
> > > Activity'" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 9:14:20 PM
> > > Subject: RES: [xmca] Vygotskii-Lewin as gestaltists and the critics of
> > > gestaltism in '30s
> > >
> > >
> > > Where the text was published?
> > >
> > > Joao
> > >
> > > -----Mensagem original-----
> > > De: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> Em
> > > nome
> > > de Anton Yasnitsky
> > > Enviada em: quarta-feira, 24 de abril de 2013 21:23
> > > Para: Martin Packer; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Assunto: [xmca] Vygotskii-Lewin as gestaltists and the critics of
> > > gestaltism
> > > in '30s
> > >
> > > Oh, this one is pretty easy. Two points:
> > >
> > >
> > > Point 1. The source is fairly idiosyncratic and should be almost
> totally
> > > distrusted. Firstly, Vygotsky never wrote this text:
> > >
> > > Leontiev (A.N.) and Zaporozhets did. This text was generated on the
> basis
> > > of
> > > the notes the two guys were taking
> > >
> > > during Vygotskii's several hours long presentation, and only God knows
> what
> > > exactly the whole talk was about.
> > >
> > > Naturally, the title was invented by the publishers of these notes
> > > --Leontiev A.A. and Ryabova (Akhutina)--who
> > >
> > > released it for the first time in 1968. Then, the textological hybrid
> was
> > > republished in the Collected Works, with grave mistakes in chronology,
> but,
> > > quite possibly, there are also other involuntary mistakes and
> deliberate
> > > censorship in the style of Yaroshevskii's usual brutal editing of
> > > Vygotskii's texts.
> > >
> > >
> > > Luckily, some notes that Vygotskii prepared BEFORE the talk have
> preserved
> > > and--
> > >
> > > hurray, hurray!--were published fairly recently by Zavershneva.
> > > I guess, furthermore, we also published the stuff in English some time
> ago.
> > > Quite a bonus, I would say.
> > > So, it might be pretty interesting to compare the two sources, whatever
> > > brief and fragmentary both are.
> > >
> > > Anyway, all this needs to be kept in mind as long as this publication
> is
> > > concerned.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Point 2. To the matter: "cultural-historical gestalt psychology" as a
> > > synthesis of Soviet Luria-Vygotskian and, on the other hand,
> > > German-American
> > > gestalt psychology. Regardless of what Vygotskii--or, rather Leontiev,
> > > Zaporozhets and Yaroshevskii--say in this paper "The problem of
> > > consciousness", there is overwhelming evidence of most intensive
> > >
> > > and productive contacts between the two groups of scholars and, if not
> > > mutual convergence, then most enthusiastic attempts to integrate
> > > German-American gestaltist scholarship in the Soviet Union. I could
> > > probably
> > > try to relate this story here, but for the time being would refer to
> the
> > > work that has already been done.
> > >
> > > It took me several [already published] papers to provide arguments in
> > > support of this claim.
> > > Some of these are in Russian, but the just of one of these is
> available in
> > > English (and some other languages), too.
> > > All these are available here, right after Keiler's seminal work that
> shows
> > > that Vygotsky never spoke of "cultural-historical psychology" or, for
> that
> > > matter, "higher psychic functions" (vysshie psikhicheskie funktsii):
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.psyanima.ru/journal/2012/1/index.php
> > >
> > >
> > > FYI, Russian paper provides numerous footnotes not in Russian that
> might
> > > give some idea of the contents of the paper.
> > >
> > > Also, there are a couple of nice original documents published as
> > > Illustrations within this Russian paper.
> > >
> > >
> > > Still, the paper does not deal directly with the issue of theoretical
> > > synthesis. Well, in fact, such paper is not written yet.
> > >
> > > In a couple of words, though, the idea is as follows, I guess:
> profoundly
> > > influenced by gestaltist holism from late 1929
> > >
> > > onwards, Vygotskii, however, moves closer to Kurt Lewin, who, in turn,
> > > started expressing his criticism of gestaltist
> > >
> > > preoccupation with holism in favour of more balanced view that would
> take
> > > into consideration the wholeness and,
> > >
> > > on the other hand, the life of organs and the processes in the
> sub-parts of
> > > the whole, including the processes of
> > >
> > > separation and fragmentation. This development looked too revisionist
> for
> > > the hardcore gestaltist, and fairly renegade.
> > > It is pretty much in this sense Vygotskii was--along with Lewin--a most
> > > devoted gestaltist and, at the same time,
> > > its staunch critic. This is how I would interpret Lewin's and
> Vygotskii's
> > > both holism-gestaltism and its critic to the extent
> > >
> > > of the danger of excommunication from the ranks of faithful
> gestaltists.
> > > This is true of the decade of 1930s, but not earlier.
> > >
> > >
> > > AY
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu>
> > > To: Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com>; "eXtended Mind, Culture,
> > > Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2013 6:20:34 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "semiotic/semantic [semicheskyj] analysis" (timeo
> > > Vygotskii et dona ferentem)
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Anton,
> > >
> > > In "The problem of consciousness" (Collected Works, vol. 3), LSV writes
> > > that
> > > gestalt psychology makes the mistake of assuming that the psychological
> > > functions form a specific kind of unified structure. He says that he
> wants
> > > to treat this assumption as the problem: to explore the connections
> among
> > > the psychological functions, and how these connections change
> dynamically.
> > >
> > > Certainly one can read this as an influence of gestalt psychology on
> his
> > > work. But it doesn't seem much of a movement towards a synthesis, or to
> > > encourage such a synthesis. What's your take on this?
> > >
> > > Martin
> > >
> > > On Apr 23, 2013, at 7:54 PM, Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > As I mentioned this on several occasions, a synthesis of Vygotskian
> ideas
> > > with the solid system of gestaltist thought--
> > > >
> > > > the "cultural-historical gestalt psychology", if I may--looks like a
> very
> > > interesting and most promising option
> > > >
> > > > for the development of Vygotskiana in psychology today.
> > > __________________________________________
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>
--
Lemwang Chuhwanglim
"There is always a victory to be achieved"
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