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Re: [xmca] Polls are closed: Manfred Holodynsk's article is choice

Hello Martin,
can you please elaborate a little on what you understand as the distinction between 'prior intentions and mental states of belief and desire'. or if that's too much of an ask in a paragraph or two, point me towards something I should read?


On 20/03/2013, at 9:55 AM, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:

> Larry,
> I agree with you that we have here converging lines of theory/research. And I like your use of the term gesture, because presumably while for the adult an infant's smile is understood as a 'sign' of pleasure, or of recognition, or of appreciation, the infant has no intention to sign. For the infant (in-itself) the smile is a gesture, while for the adult, within a community of signers and symbolizers, (for-others) the smile is a sign.
> The problem I have with Gergely's work is that he seems to assume that any kind of intelligible act has to be backed by an intentional state, by beliefs and desires. He doesn't see the distinction that John Searle has drawn between intention in action and prior intention. Tomasello sees that distinction, but in my view he then fails to make the distinction between prior intentions and mental states of belief and desire. And both of them fail to see that mental state discourse is not culturally universal; there are other conceptual frameworks within which people understand intentional action.
> That's a lot packed into one paragraph; I bring it up because at times I think that  Manfred Holodynski is also assuming that when the infant acts intelligently in interaction with adults, this means he (the infant) is forming intentions that cause those actions, and that these intentions are mental states. In my view this confuses the picture and prevents us from seeing the real developments.
> Martin
> On Mar 19, 2013, at 6:12 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Martin
>> I agree that there are multiple paths and facial mirroring is one
>> particular type of gesture used to communicate expression signs.
>> The multiplicity of overlapping gestures is the reason I am translating
>> *expressive signs* into the concept of *gestures* which is developing the
>> same theme from another tradition.
>> The notion of gestures being explored by Elena cufferi while at Oregon and
>> now in Spain is exploring this inter-subjective realm.
>> Merleau pointy extends the centrality of gestures to language as a still
>> more expansive understanding of gestures.
>> If the terms *expressive signs* and *gestures* share a family resemblance
>> then this may be a possible
>> If gergely and fonagy exploring this dynamic of the development of
>> expressive signs are seen as relevant to cultural historical
>> theories as understanding how gestures (always inter-subjective) are
>> foundational for developing co and self regulation, then this understanding
>> may be a possible way of bridging a number of psychological discourses.
>> This article as participating in this way of understanding development
>> offers a way into possible shared discourse across traditions.
>> Larry
>> On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:
>>> Larry,
>>> I doubt that mirroring of facial expression is the *only* way that adults
>>> provide feedback to their infants that is mediated by cultural norms and
>>> categories of emotion. One interacts with an emotional baby in many other
>>> ways too - comforting them through contact, cuddling and rocking. Amusing
>>> them by tickling and tossing in the air. Each of these is the omega
>>> interacting with the alpha. Plus we know there are cultures where face to
>>> face contact with infants is relatively rare - an infant may pass much time
>>> strapped to his mother's back, for example.
>>> But I don't see these points as objections to the basic argument that
>>> adult interpretation, culturally formed, plays an important constitutive
>>> role in a child's emotional development, in particular the shift from
>>> other-regulated to self-regulated emotion.
>>> Martin
>>> On Mar 19, 2013, at 11:36 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Andy,
>>>> Following up on your commentary on the article under discussion.
>>>> Expression signs are assumed to mediate the psychological and the
>>>> sociocultural as a mechanism.
>>>> I would like to now focus on the theory or model of *internalization* and
>>>> invite commentary on this model.
>>>> On page 24 the question is posed: which developmental mechanism underlies
>>>> the differentiation of fully functioning emotional expressions?
>>>> Answer:
>>>> According to the internalization model the decisive mechanism is to be
>>>> found in the interplay between two factors: the caregivers motive-serving
>>>> RESPONSE and mirroring of infant emotional expression interacting with
>>> the
>>>> infant's imitation of the caregiver's emotional expression and learning
>>>> from experience.... infants differentiate their emotions in a semantic
>>>> space in which their emotional experiences are MEDITED by the
>>>> INTERPRETATIONS of their caregivers.
>>>> Is this answer to the question accepted as the decisive mechanism which
>>>> transforms precursor emotions into fully functioning emotions??
>>>> The reason I ask, is because this model is also profoundly transforming
>>>> psychoanalytical understandings of expression signs.
>>>> Larry
>>>> On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>>>> You're an africienado of this cuisine yourself, Joe.
>>>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/**jl78v2n3.PDF<
>>> http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/jl78v2n3.PDF>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>> JAG wrote:
>>>>>> Do you deliver
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> On Mar 18, 2013, at 10:34 PM, Martin Packer <packer@duq.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>> I'm not aware that they included any neurological techniques in their
>>>>>>> research, Andy.
>>>>>>> Martin
>>>>>>> On Mar 18, 2013, at 9:14 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Thanks Martin.
>>>>>>>> I am not confused.
>>>>>>>> I am reminded of when my friend Sasha was arrested for punching a
>>>>>>>> copper at a demonstration in London in 1968. His girlfriend appeared
>>> as a
>>>>>>>> witness, and when the judged asked her: "Did you see the defendant
>>> punch
>>>>>>>> the officer?" she replied: "No!" so judge dismissed her saying that
>>> if she
>>>>>>>> didn't see the offence then she was not a witness. Sasha was
>>> innocent of
>>>>>>>> course, but he got 6 months in Brixton.
>>>>>>>> The question xmca readers can reflect on is this: are Manfred and the
>>>>>>>> other contributors to this Special Issue on emotion ignorant of the
>>> widely
>>>>>>>> publicised phenomenon of mirror neurons despite many years of
>>> research into
>>>>>>>> the development of emotional expression in infants, or does their
>>> failure
>>>>>>>> to witness the action of "mirror neurons" suggest that there are no
>>> such
>>>>>>>> entities?
>>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>> Martin Packer wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Andy,
>>>>>>>>> I think you're mixing three different kinds of 'mirroring':
>>>>>>>>> 1. recognition of one's mirror image, something that develops during
>>>>>>>>> the 2nd year of life.
>>>>>>>>> 2. mirroring the facial expression of an interactional or
>>>>>>>>> conversational partner, something that adults and infants start to
>>> do early
>>>>>>>>> in the first year of life.
>>>>>>>>> 3. neurons that fire either when a person is producing a certain
>>>>>>>>> action or when they are perceiving the same action.
>>>>>>>>> Though these have similar names they are quite distinct phenomena,
>>>>>>>>> although researchers propose various connections amongst them.
>>>>>>>>> Martin
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