[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

RE: [xmca] Polls are closed: Manfred Holodynsk's article is choice

Wikipedia's entry opens with "A mirror neuron is a neuron that fires both when an animal acts and when the animal observes the same action performed by another." 

Help me, here. I thought neural activity was associated with things meaningful at the level of patterns of neural firings, not at the level of the individual neuron. 

David


-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Andy Blunden
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 12:22 AM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] Polls are closed: Manfred Holodynsk's article is choice

Who's against being "interested in" the brain, Vera?
And what is "materialist" about explaining human behaviour by postulating unobservable and uncontrollable mechanisms in a brain you or I will never see? That sounds almost like the definition of idealism to me (As in Thesis on Feuerbach #1). Take a phenomenon, and posit a metaphyical cause especially for that phenomenon, problem solved. 
"Mirror neurons" are a simplistic reification of the idea of biological determination of social behaviour, obviating the need for any investigation of activity. Children imitate, therefore there are "imitiative neurons" in the head. I believe in God therefore I have God-neuron? If this is materialism I prefer idealism.

Andy

Vera John-Steiner wrote:
> I fully agree, Martin. I have considered our lack of interest in the 
> brain a strange stance considering the crucial role Luria has played 
> in C-H theory, beside the clear implication of a materialist stance. 
> How can there be a study of speech or thinking without a slowly growing but exciting exploration of the brain?
>
> Vera
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] 
> On Behalf Of Martin Packer
> Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 6:13 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Polls are closed: Manfred Holodynsk's article is 
> choice
>
> Seems to me that we say that a word is a process. Equally, a thought 
> is a process. Producing either without having a brain would be a 
> struggle. Trying to figure out the role of the brain in each is worthwhile.
>
> Martin
>
> On Mar 17, 2013, at 6:56 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
>
>   
>> As I understand it, "mirror neurons" are not supposed to be sensory
>>     
> neurons or motor neurons, but in the frontal lobe. But in any case, 
> reacting to light or pressure. etc., constitutes a connection to a 
> neuron in someone else's head only in the most trivial sense. But my 
> intention was actually to head off a diversion but I am in danger of 
> creating one. I certainly have experienced a baby smiling back at me, 
> but I think ascribing this behaviour to "mirror neurons" is pure 
> metaphysics, about as explanatory as ascribing it to angels, only except that "mirror neurons" belongs to today's religion.
> I think infant smiling is most fruitfully discussed as behaviour 
> rather than brain activity.
>   
>> On the other matter, far from occupying different realms, words *are* 
>> things. But thoughts are not. But I no longer try to persuade people 
>> of this. A lost cause. In the world of "mirror neurons" thoughts are 
>> also configurations of neurons. :(
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> Greg Thompson wrote:
>>     
>>> Andy, I think that there is an incredibly important assumption here 
>>> in your comment that has been side-stepped by other responses thus 
>>> far
>>>       
> You wrote:
>   
>>> "leaving aside surgical intervention, neurons only react to other 
>>> neurons
>>>       
> by direct electrochemical interaction."
>   
>>> If this were true, we would never be able to make any contact with 
>>> the
>>>       
> world "outside" of our brains - neurons would just be talking to 
> neurons and they would have no connection with the "world out there" 
> (or any world for that matter!), and in which case, we would not be 
> able to see, hear, touch, smell, feel, balance, etc.
>   
>>> But we can do all these things. Thus, there must be a process of 
>>> moving
>>>       
> from one to the other - from light striking the retina to neurons 
> firing in the retina and on down the brain (but where is "seeing"?). 
> So "mirror neurons" aren't necessarily impossible (although it may 
> still be incomplete or wrong for other reasons).
>   
>>> [and I hope you'll notice a parallel here between the concern 
>>> articulated in this email and my previous response to the division 
>>> that you introduced in an XMCA post some time ago between the dollar 
>>> in your pocket and the dollar in your head. As if the WORD and the 
>>> THING are in fundamentally different realms - never to meet one 
>>> another]
>>>
>>> But I think that there is an intuition in your comment about neurons 
>>> that
>>>       
> nicely "lights up" one of the central problematics of Western science: 
> how do you get from physical stuff to mental stuff?
>   
>>> I suspect that this question-as-problem arises from a confused
>>>       
> understanding of what we mean by both "physical" and "mental". On the 
> one hand, we neglect the semiotic, information-based properties of the 
> physical (and Gregory Bateson is a great place to look for a better 
> understanding here). And similarly, on the other hand, we neglect the 
> physical aspects of what we understand to be "mental" (and here, 
> perhaps Charles Peirce is a good place to look here).
>   
>>> And a bigger problem within which both of these troubles sit is our
>>>       
> tendency of our understanding towards entification rather than seeking 
> the relational and processual nature of both the so-called "physical" 
> and the so-called "mental." And that's a whole other problem altogether.
>   
>>> But I've said a lot (too much?) already.
>>> -greg
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 6:15 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>>       
> <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>   
>>>    Robert, if I were to suggest that "mirror neurons" are a
>>>    metaphyical belief which have no more basis in existence than
>>>    phlogiston or ether, would that actually change anything? Have you
>>>    ever been misled by the mistaken observation of "mirror neuron"
>>>    activity, or has observation of a mirror neuron ever explained
>>>    some otherwise inexplicable event? So far as I know, leaving aside
>>>    surgical intervention, neurons only react to other neurons by
>>>    direct electrochemical interaction.
>>>    Andy
>>>
>>>    Robert Lake wrote:
>>>
>>>        Hi everyone,
>>>        I am a relative newcomer to CHAT research, so this (mostly
>>>        rhetorical) question is probably
>>>        old hat to many of you. It concerns Holodynski's article as it
>>>        may or may not relate to the notion of mirror neurons as
>>>        described by Ramachandran.
>>>
>>>        
>>> http://www.ted.com/talks/vs_ramachandran_the_neurons_that_shaped_civ
>>> i
>>> lization.html
>>>
>>>
>>>        If I understand this correctly, in Holodynski's view, a
>>>        caregiver mirrors back to the child, his or her own emotions
>>>        through gesture and facial expressions. What if the child's
>>>        emotions/expressions fall into the range of autism spectrum
>>>        disorders? Can ZPD's be created that in turn help create and
>>>        develop "empathy" neurons in us regardless of our age level?
>>>        Are there some cultures that are more emotionally and perhaps
>>>        empathically evolved?
>>>
>>>        Thank-you MCA team  and Professor Holodynski for this article.
>>>        I think it represents the a key component for the future of
>>>        cultural/historical research.
>>>
>>>        Fascinated and curious,
>>>        Robert Lake
>>>
>>>
>>>        On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 10:59 PM, Andy Blunden
>>>        <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>>        <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>            The article for discussion is now available at:
>>>            http://lchc.ucsd.edu/MCA/Journal/pdfs/20-1-holodynski.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>>            Andy
>>>
>>>            mike cole wrote:
>>>
>>>                We will make available Manfred Holodynski's article - The
>>>                Internalization
>>>                Theory of Emotions: A Cultural Historical Approach to the
>>>                Development of Emotions - available
>>>                for discussion as soon as possible. Then let the
>>>        discussion begin!
>>>
>>>                mike
>>>                __________________________________________
>>>                _____
>>>                xmca mailing list
>>>                xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>        <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>>                http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>
>>>
>>>                 
>>>            --
>>>       
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>   
>>>            *Andy Blunden*
>>>            Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>>>        <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/> 
>>> <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
>>>
>>>            Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>>>            http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
>>>
>>>            __________________________________________
>>>            _____
>>>            xmca mailing list
>>>            xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>        <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>>
>>>            http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>        --         *Robert Lake  Ed.D.
>>>        *Associate Professor
>>>        Social Foundations of Education
>>>        Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
>>>        Georgia Southern University
>>>        P. O. Box 8144
>>>        Phone: (912) 478-0355 <tel:%28912%29%20478-0355>
>>>        Fax: (912) 478-5382 <tel:%28912%29%20478-5382>
>>>        Statesboro, GA  30460
>>>
>>>         /Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and
>>>        education is its midwife./
>>>        /-/John Dewey.
>>>
>>>
>>>    --
>>>       
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>   
>>>    *Andy Blunden*
>>>    Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/>
>>>    Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>>>    http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
>>>
>>>
>>>    __________________________________________
>>>    _____
>>>    xmca mailing list
>>>    xmca@weber.ucsd.edu <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
>>>    http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>>> Visiting Assistant Professor
>>> Department of Anthropology
>>> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>>> Brigham Young University
>>> Provo, UT 84602
>>> http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson
>>>       
>> --
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --
>> *Andy Blunden*
>> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>> http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden
>>
>> __________________________________________
>> _____
>> xmca mailing list
>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>>
>>     
>
>
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
>
> __________________________________________
> _____
> xmca mailing list
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
>
>
>   

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Andy Blunden*
Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
http://marxists.academia.edu/AndyBlunden

__________________________________________
_____
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca


__________________________________________
_____
xmca mailing list
xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca