RE: RE: [xmca] VS: Coding Logical Sophistication in Dialogic Pedagogy

Well, alright. I was trying to save your poor student some of the intense agony that I went through, using Hallidayan categories to code classroom data for many years before I realized that I was only looking at text and not at talk. We did produce a number of articles, and some of them were published, but I now think that the whole transcribe-and-code approach we took was misguided, and I found Duranti's article very clarifying about why. But I guess I needn't worry; she's in good hands.

(Nevertheless, I'd really like to hear about all the different suggestions that you got off line; coding for logical sophistication is something we've been doing a fair amount of, in the context of moral development.)

I don't know if you remember, but there was a video clilp of a little boy conducting an orchestra which circulated on the list a year or two ago, and we were wondering whether the child was copying or not. One of the pieces of evidence cited for the extraordinary musicality of the little boy was that he appeared to be actually leading the orchestra rather than simply following the notes with his gestures, the way that a teenager playing air guitar might. I suggested that if you looked at the video very carefully, you could see that the kid was looking somewhere off camera rather than at the camera, and this to me suggested that he was following, but he was following a video of a conductor, and conductors do tend to anticipate notes rather than simply confirm them.

We never really resolved that debate. But here's another interesting piece of evidence. It's a "masterclass" by the great Shakespearian (and Hollywood) actor Brian Cox teaching a thirty-month old to repeat the Hamlet soliloquy "To be or not to be" from Act Three.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loDMRzPiCic

Interestingly, the EDITED and SUBTITLED version of this clip is not MORE comprehensible--it's less:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KvnnCKjzPE

Here's what I think is going on--not based on any coding scheme beyond skeptical hypothesis testing. Cox's "Suzuki method" consists of breaking up the soliloquy into packets of three words/groups/phrases (I know, these are Hallidayan categories). The child then uses what Vygotsky would call the "eidetic memory" (that is, the literal, three second "afterimage" memory) to repeat, but repeats the whole behavior. The gestures are repeated quite well, the intonation and stress somewhat less so, and the vowels and consonants are repeated rather poorly, but the viewer, and certainly the teacher, interprets this holistic response as a kind of comprehension.

Why do we interpret this as comprehension? That is the question. I think the answer is twofold: first of all, we are very familiar with the words, and so we rush to assume that the child is saying them even where the phonological evidence strongly suggests that the child is not saying them. Secondly, we are NOT familiar with the actual meaning of the soliloquy. Many assume that Hamlet is discussing suicide, but there is no actual evidence in the soliloquy that this is what he is thinking about and there is evidence elsewhere in the script (Hamlet's very first soliloquy, "Oh that this too solid flesh would melt" that he cannot be considering suicide ("his canon against self-slaughter"). So whatever the child may mean by the soliloquy is taken to be its meaning. (You can actually see on the video that the child creates his own gesture for "slings and arrows of outrageous fortune" and this gesture is then IMITATED BY THE TEACHER as a possible interpretation of the Shakespearian phrase!)

There's only one part that I really don't understand, and it's here that I think Hallidayan coding can help. The child responds to "That is the question" with "Yes, it is". Why not "That is" or "Yes that is"? Why "Yes, it is?"

David Kellogg

Hankuk University of Foreign Studies

--------- 원본 메일 ---------

보낸사람: David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu>
받는사람 : "lchcmike@gmail.com" <lchcmike@gmail.com>, "eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
참조 : Indira V Chillara <ichill1@tigers.lsu.edu>
날짜: 2013년 1월 22일 화요일, 02시 15분 07초 +0900
제목: RE: [xmca] VS: Coding Logical Sophistication in Dialogic Pedagogy

No, individual, rather than collective, intelligence, but as emerging within social processes.
David

-----Original Message-----
From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 11:06 AM
To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
Subject: Re: [xmca] VS: Coding Logical Sophistication in Dialogic Pedagogy

So the core of your project could be characterized as a an exploration of the conditions that promote social or collective, intelligence, David? I am thinking Dewey here. Or do I have it wrong?

The virtual realist/hypercontextualist antimony sure invites interesting metaphors for how to characterize the process of superceding them. I am not so sure about stradling as a metaphor for the requisite process of unification rather than weaving.

signed
A hyper non-virtual contextual realist.
:-)
mike

On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 8:51 AM, David H Kirshner <dkirsh@lsu.edu> wrote:

> Hi David
> Thanks for highlighting the bogeypersons of virtual-realists whose
> reductionist zeal leads to little of value and hypercontextualists
> whose wide-eyed wonder at the complexness of it all becomes its own
> grave—and for highlighting the virtues of straddling.
> Fortunately, our goal isn’t the normative project of thinking about
> how to get logically unsophisticated thinkers to become sophisticated.
> What we’re after are the processes at the group level that result in
> (what we predict will be) increasing sophistication overall. So, I
> think we’re already straddling.
> David
> PS. My thanks to those, on- and off-line, who already have responded
> to the request. We’ve gotten some interesting leads, and will report
> back on what we find.
>
>
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> On Behalf Of kellogg
> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 3:16 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: RE: [xmca] VS: Coding Logical Sophistication in Dialogic
> Pedagogy
>
>
> David:
>
>
>
> Your posting straddles two threads--Dialogic Pedagogy and coding. Let
> me see if I can do the same thing!
>
>
>
> There was a wonderful article by Alessandro Duranti on transcription
> in MCA a while back (Vol. 13 No. 4) where he points out that
> transcription IS coding. When you transcribe, you begin by making one
> of two assumptions, which Duranti calls "virtual realism" on the one
> hand and "hypercontextualism" on the other.
>
>
>
> Virtual realists are like children who think that sites on the
> internet are places they can actually visit. They talk to their
> transcripts as if the people in them were real. They look at
> transcripts and ask themselves which students are more logical and
> which students are less, and they try to figure out how the less
> logical students can be more like the more logical ones.
>
>
>
> Hypercontextualists are like escapees from Plato's cave. They are
> always saying "Yes, but it's more complicated than that" but they are
> not particularly good at saying why or why it matters. Duranti points
> out that there is a good reason for that: they imagine that there is
> an Edenic unmediated reality lying just beyond the horizon of the
> transcript to which the participants once had direct access. The task,
> by its very nature Sisyphean, is to try to reconstruct that unmediated
> reality and to hell with coding.
>
>
>
> Duranti's conclusion is that we have to give up the illusion that in
> transcribing we are recording what went on (and, I would hasten to
> add, that in coding we are evaluating and comparing what went on with
> some kind of norm). Now, my reasoning is a little different from
> Duranti's (it has to do with the distinction between "text" which is
> finished and complete and somehow "epic", locked in the past, and
> "discourse" which is ongoing and by its very nature not finalizable),
> but as far as I can tell my conclusions are the same.
>
>
>
> Duranti says that you have to treat a particular transcript and a
> particular coding scheme as a particular point of view, and not as a
> picture of unmediated reality. The object of study then becomes the
> point of view and not the picture of unmediated reality. So I guess
> Duranti would say that the way to look at the data is to ask the
> student to (who is presumably the teacher) to find a MOST logical
> argument and a SECOND MOST logical argument (or something like that)
> and then maybe a LEAST logical argument and then to try to figure out
> what the two "logical" arguments have in common that the not-so-logical argument doesn't.
>
>
>
> That doesn't give you a coding scheme for the transcript. It's
> actually better, particularly for a student working under a professor
> like David Kirshner, whose main interest is always teasing apart the
> various threads of pedagogical thought in a given teacher. It gives
> you a coding scheme for understanding the teacher's point of view.
>
>
>
> Now, the reason I think this straddles both threads is that I find
> Duranti's article an almost perfect example of the kind of thing I
> would like to publish and yet I find almost impossible to publish. For
> many years this didn't bother me, because I didn't have to publish to
> keep my (extremely low paid) job, so I just wrote what I liked and
> didn't take much notice of the (increasingly hysterical) rejections
> that came in. But now, alas, I am in the position of most assistant
> professors; if I don't publish at least once a year, I will find
> myself without contract in my dotage. I guess that's the sad part of
> the situation, but who has time to cry about it?
>
>
>
> David Kellogg
>
> Hankuk University of Foreign Studies
>
>
> --------- 원본 메일 ---------
> 보낸사람: Rauno Huttunen <rakahu@utu.fi<mailto:rakahu@utu.fi>>
> 받는사람 : "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<mailto:
> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>,"lchcmike@gmail.com<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>"
> < lchcmike@gmail.com<mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>>
> 참조 : Indira V Chillara <ichill1@tigers.lsu.edu<mailto:
> ichill1@tigers.lsu.edu>>
> 날짜: 2013년 1월 21일 월요일, 00시 47분 06초 +0900
> 제목: [xmca] VS: Coding Logical Sophistication in Dialogic Pedagogy
> Hello,
>
> Phenomenography has been used with this kind of data but in the
> purpose of finding logical sophistication of arguments but to describe
> the variation of the ways of understandings (a.k.a. outcome space).
> The founder of phenomenography Ference Marton himself has done this kind of research.
>
> Rauno Huttunen
>
>
> ________________________________________
> Lähettäjä: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu<
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca-bounc
> es@weber.ucsd.edu>
> [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu<
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca-bounc
> es@weber.ucsd.edu>] käyttäjän David H Kirshner [dkirsh@lsu.edu<
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=dkirsh@lsu
> .edu>]
> puolesta
> Lähetetty: 20. tammikuuta 2013 15:00
> Vastaanottaja: lchcmike@gmail.com<
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=lchcmike@g
> mail.com>;
> eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Cc: Indira V Chillara
> Aihe: [xmca] Coding Logical Sophistication in Dialogic Pedagogy
>
> Speaking of dialogic pedagogy--congratulations, Eugene!--a student of
> mine has taught a geometry class with a view to observing effects on
> the logical sophistication of students' argumentation.
> She's transcribed the data of classroom discussions, and is now trying
> to find a coding scheme for analyzing the logical sophistication of arguments.
> Does anyone have any leads on this?
> Thanks.
> David
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu<
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca-bounc
> es@weber.ucsd.edu>
> [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu<
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=xmca-bounc
> es@weber.ucsd.edu>]
> On Behalf Of mike cole
> Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2013 8:51 PM
> To: xmca
> Subject: [xmca] Re: Dialogic Pedagogy Journal has been born!
>
> Hi- Sorry if this is a repeat.
>
> i think we all understand that the status of academic publishing is
> pretty sad and I think that we are all seeking a better set of
> practices -- although there is probably no concensus on "better"
>
> So what better than to try to embody theory in practice and begin a
> dialogic journal? !!
>
> Thanks to Eugene and all his compatriots for opening up this new form
> of publication.
> Mike
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Eugene Matusov <ematusov@udel.edu<
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=ematusov@u
> del.edu>>
> wrote:
>
> > Dear colleague-****
> >
> > ** **
> >
> > We happy to inform that after 9 months of pregnancy (and hard work!)
> > the Dialogic Pedagogy: An International Online Journal has been born!
> > Please see its link at http://dpj.pitt.edu<http://dpj.pitt.edu/>
> > ****
> >
> > ** **
> >
> > Our Open Access journal has four sites:****
> >
> > ***1) ****DPJ Published Content site open to everybody for published
> > papers and comments on them and public announcements (e.g., about
> > upcoming conferences relevant to DP);*
> >
> > ***2) ****DPJ Community Space site open only to Dialogic Pedagogy
> > Journal (DPJ) community members for discussion of submitted papers
> > and many
> > more;*
> >
> > ***3) ****DPJ Public Space WordPress open to everybody for
> > information on Dialogic Pedagogy (wiki, recommended literature, and
> > so on);
> > *
> >
> > **4) **DPJ Community Space WordPress open only to DPJ community
> > members for diverse forums (e.g., providing feedback on work in
> > progress, discussion recorded innovative pedagogical practices,
> > discussion of the issues on Dialogic Pedagogy, and so on) -- *still
> > work
> in progress*(please be patient with us).
> > ****
> >
> > ** **
> >
> > Please read our first Editorial:
> > http://dpj.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/dpj1/article/view/14/9 and Focus
> > and Scope<
> http://dpj.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/dpj1/about/editorialPolicies#focusAn
> dScope>of
> the Journal.
> > ****
> >
> > ** **
> >
> > To become a DPJ member, you need to register on the DPJ site.
> > Becoming a DPJ member allow you to submit papers and participate in
> > discussion of published and submitted papers and so on. You do not
> > need to register to read DPJ publications.****
> >
> > ** **
> >
> > Call for papers and participation:****
> >
> > We invite you to submit your wonderful papers to DPJ<
> http://dpj.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/dpj1/information/authors>.
> > We also want to invite you for a discussion of the submitted papers
> > (we already have some!).****
> >
> > ** **
> >
> > We use collaborative Dialogic Pedagogy philosophy to guide us about
> > the review process of submitted manuscripts. It is different from
> > many academic journals - please read DPJ Review
> > Policy<http://dpj.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/dpj1/about/editorialPolicie
> > s#<
> http://dpj.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/dpj1/about/editorialPolicies>
> > peerReviewProcess>
> > .****
> >
> > ** **
> >
> > Call for becoming
> > reviewers<http://dpj.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/dpj1/login?source=%2Fojs
> > %2<
> http://dpj.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/dpj1/login?source=%2Fojs%252>
> > Findex.php%2Fdpj1%2Fuser%2Fprofile>
> > ****
> >
> > Call for becoming a member of the DPJ Editorial
> > Board<dpjournals@mail.pitt.edu<
> http://mail2.daum.net/hanmail/mail/MailComposeFrame.daum?TO=dpjournals
> @mail.pitt.edu
> >>
> > ****
> >
> > ** **
> >
> > To discuss the first manuscript submitted to the DPJ, please, go to
> > (DPJ Community Space <http://dpj.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/dpj2/index>
> > -> Current -> [Title of the article]): Rereading Comprehension
> > Pedagogies: Toward a Dialogic Teaching Ethic that Honors Student
> > Sensemaking<http://dpj.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/dpj2/article/view/13>(
> > re gistration and login is required to access this article and to
> > discuss it online). To discuss the paper click on Add
> > Comment<http://dpj.pitt.edu/ojs/index.php/dpj2/comment/add/13/0>
> > ).****
> >
> > ** **
> >
> > Thanks A LOT for all who helped in starting the journal!****
> >
> > ** **
> >
> > Let us know if you have questions. Please pass this info to your
> > colleagues who may be interested in Dialogic Pedagogy. Sorry, if you
> > get this message several times.****
> >
> > ** **
> >
> > See you on the DPJ sites,****
> >
> > ** **
> >
> > Eugene Matusov, DPJ Editor-in-Chief, University of Delaware, USA****
> >
> > Ana Marjanovic-Shane, DPJ Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Chestnut Hill
> > College,
> > USA****
> >
> > Yifat Ben-David Kolikant, DPJ Deputy Editor-in-Chief, Hebrew
> > University,
> > Israel****
> >
> > ----------------------------****
> >
> > Eugene Matusov, PhD****
> >
> > Professor of Education****
> >
> > School of Education****
> >
> > 16 W Main st****
> >
> > University of Delaware****
> >
> > Newark, DE 19716, USA****
> >
> > ** **
> >
> > Publications: http://ematusov.soe.udel.edu/vita/publications.htm****
> >
> > DiaPed: http://diaped.soe.udel.edu<http://diaped.soe.udel.edu/>****
> >
> > ----------------------------****
> >
> > ** **
> >
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