Re: [xmca] Re: Lytical

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Seems a reasonable idea, Larry.
mike

On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 10:42 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mike,
> A quick comment:
> You wrote:
>
> *without a lot of rehearsal*
>
> You further commented:
>
> "or is our ability to read in the first place invisibly linked to enabling
> circumstances that are left out of the analysis?"
>
> This question of what is invisibly linked but left out of the analysis is
> a central question. However, is it possible that with lots of rehearsal, we
> may link these invisible circumstances without knowing precisely what these
> circumstances are??
>
> When I and a student together rehearse a passage that is beyond the
> students reading ability, I am aware that I'm not exactly sure what our
> rehearsal is linking to. However, with each repeated encounter, the student
> more closely approximates mature reading [prosody or reading AS
> conversation].
>
> The invisible circumstances may stay invisible but the rehearsal seems to
> support the development of prosody IF this is what is seen as the focus of
> intervention.
>
> Larry
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 10:39 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Larry--  It seems that fluency in general, prosody with respect to reading
>> in particular, could be symptoms of a developmental change if, a la
>> the examples that Helen G provided of Marianne H's notion of development
>> being qualitative change across activities is kept in the picture.
>>
>> What I am still missing, a point that Andy has emphasized a lot in his
>> notes, is the need to keep the individual-context relation in mind in
>> trying to think about these matters. Any one of us, given a legal document
>> to read, or being asked to stand up and read from an unfamiliar text to a
>> large audience without a lot of rehearsal, is likely to get so hung up
>> on pronouncing the words correctly that both prosody and comprehension
>> are likely to suffer. Did we "forget how to read" under such circumstances
>> or is our ability to read in the first place invisibly linked to enabling
>> circumstances that are left out of the analysis?
>>
>> And note that "forgetting" is a reasonable antonym for "learning" but the
>> antonyms do not come easily to mind.
>>
>> mike
>> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 12:12 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Andy
>> >
>> > I'm not sure if what I am going to discuss fits this topic or not.
>> > I have been wondering about the centrality of *fluency* as a key
>> component
>> > of early reading. Fluency as a construct involves rate,  [automaticity]
>> > accuracy, and prosody.
>> > Recently *prosody* and its centrality to developing reading skill is
>> being
>> > lytically explored.
>> > Prosody involves intonation and *pausing* as markers of turn taking in
>> > communicative acts.
>> > Bakhtin's construct of *answerability* as central to utterances [turn
>> > taking within communicative acts] also involves *intonation* and
>> *prosody*
>> > as central and primary.
>> >
>> > Intonation and prosody express the emotional aspect of communicative
>> acts
>> > as forms of *conversation* which is Gadamer's central notion within
>> > philosophical hermeneutics.
>> >
>> > I have been wondering if anyone is linking up the centrality of prosody
>> > [intonation and pausing as emotional markers] within BOTH conversational
>> > utterances  and early reading instruction.
>> >
>> > The suffix *lytical* meaning to dissolve or loosen and the notion of
>> > *pausing* or *gaps* within communicative acts as *answerability* may
>> share
>> > common features.
>> >
>> > Is there such a word as dia-lytical?? [dia meaning seeing through]
>> > Seeing through loosening and dissolving - NOT overcoming??
>> >
>> > This is very stream of consciousness but I'm asking myself these
>> questions
>> > so thought I would think out loud.
>> >
>> > Larry
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 10:19 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > I'm putting it back on xmca as requested, Greg.
>> > > Further investigation led me to the fact that the suffix "-lytical"
>> means
>> > > "to dissolve." Perhaps Vygotsky had a cinematic metaphor in mind,
>> > changing
>> > > from one scene, or situation, to another, by a dissolve? /Kritikos/,
>> the
>> > > root for "critical", on the other hand, means judgment or discernment,
>> > > which I take to be a one-or-the-other process.
>> > >
>> > > In my reading of "The Problem of Age" I did not gain from the material
>> > > about the lytical periods much about breaking down. It was much more
>> > about
>> > > consolidating and strengthening newly acquired forms of activity in
>> > > preparation perhaps for breaking out of the situation in a critical
>> phase
>> > > of development. The critical phases are famously destructive of
>> course.
>> > >
>> > > On the side, I would really urge xmca-ers who work in literacy to
>> please
>> > > join in. I am a social philosopher who wants to ally myself with a
>> living
>> > > and robust current of psychology, but I am not myself an elementary
>> > school
>> > > teacher and know almost nothing about learning to read. The article
>> Mike
>> > > wants me to read (and which I am still reading and will forward to the
>> > list
>> > > when I am done) is totally rivetting stuff. Written 24 years ago it
>> > engages
>> > > Vygotsky, Luria and A N Leontyev and is so sophisticated it bowls me
>> over
>> > > really. But I am still searching for something I could *disagree*
>> with.
>> > >
>> > > Andy
>> > >
>> > > Greg Thompson wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Not OK just yet. I'd like to try to do some dissolving of your
>> parsing
>> > of
>> > >> "lytic" a bit.
>> > >>
>> > >> I thought you said you were parsing (lysing?) "lytic" as "gradual"?
>> > >> "Gradual" seems very different from "loosening" or "dissolving", no?
>> > >>
>> > >> The process may be gradual, but to say that "lytical" means
>> "gradual" is
>> > >> like saying that "boiling" means "gradual" (after all it takes time
>> for
>> > >> water to boil - esp. if you are watching it).
>> > >>
>> > >> It seems like there is something very important in the rest of the
>> word
>> > >> "lytic" and how that relates to development. It seems that part of
>> what
>> > is
>> > >> being described here is the sense in which developments can actually
>> > >> involve the breaking down (lysing!) of previous psychological
>> > "structures"
>> > >> or "formations". That seems much more interesting than "gradual".
>> And it
>> > >> also seems a wonderful corrective to the commonly assumed model of
>> > >> development as simple linear progression.
>> > >>
>> > >> For example, there is a classic example of language learning where
>> very
>> > >> young kids will say conjugate verbs correctly b.c. they are
>> memorized,
>> > but
>> > >> then when they start to learn the rules of conjugation, they will no
>> > longer
>> > >> produce them correctly (b.c. some don't fit the patterns that they
>> are
>> > >> learning - e.g., past tense of "run" is not "runned"). So their
>> > memorized
>> > >> understanding of "ran" must be "lysed"! The result is that from the
>> > >> dissolving of those meanings a new meaning can emerge - e.g., add
>> "ed"
>> > to
>> > >> the present tense of a verb to make it past tense.
>> > >> What do you think?
>> > >>
>> > >> I'd be interested in opening this conversation to XMCA if you are
>> > >> interested. Many folks smarter than I when it comes to translation
>> and
>> > such.
>> > >>
>> > >> -greg
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 7:06 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>> <mailto:
>> > >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>     check the definitions for the suffix "-lytical." They mean
>> > >>     "loosening or dissolving." OK?
>> > >>     andy
>> > >>     --
>> > ------------------------------**------------------------------
>> > >> **------------
>> > >>     *Andy Blunden*
>> > >>     Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <
>> > http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/
>> > >> **>
>> > >>     Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D.
>> > >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower
>> > >> Department of Anthropology
>> > >> Brigham Young University
>> > >> Provo, UT 84602
>> > >> http://byu.academia.edu/**GregoryThompson<
>> > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > > --
>> > > ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>> > > ------------
>> > > *Andy Blunden*
>> > > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
>> > > Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>> > >
>> > > ______________________________**____________
>> > > _____
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