Re: [xmca] Re: Lytical

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Seems a reasonable idea, Larry. mike On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 10:42 PM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote: > Mike, > A quick comment: > You wrote: > > *without a lot of rehearsal* > > You further commented: > > "or is our ability to read in the first place invisibly linked to enabling > circumstances that are left out of the analysis?" > > This question of what is invisibly linked but left out of the analysis is > a central question. However, is it possible that with lots of rehearsal, we > may link these invisible circumstances without knowing precisely what these > circumstances are?? > > When I and a student together rehearse a passage that is beyond the > students reading ability, I am aware that I'm not exactly sure what our > rehearsal is linking to. However, with each repeated encounter, the student > more closely approximates mature reading [prosody or reading AS > conversation]. > > The invisible circumstances may stay invisible but the rehearsal seems to > support the development of prosody IF this is what is seen as the focus of > intervention. > > Larry > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 10:39 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Larry-- It seems that fluency in general, prosody with respect to reading >> in particular, could be symptoms of a developmental change if, a la >> the examples that Helen G provided of Marianne H's notion of development >> being qualitative change across activities is kept in the picture. >> >> What I am still missing, a point that Andy has emphasized a lot in his >> notes, is the need to keep the individual-context relation in mind in >> trying to think about these matters. Any one of us, given a legal document >> to read, or being asked to stand up and read from an unfamiliar text to a >> large audience without a lot of rehearsal, is likely to get so hung up >> on pronouncing the words correctly that both prosody and comprehension >> are likely to suffer. Did we "forget how to read" under such circumstances >> or is our ability to read in the first place invisibly linked to enabling >> circumstances that are left out of the analysis? >> >> And note that "forgetting" is a reasonable antonym for "learning" but the >> antonyms do not come easily to mind. >> >> mike >> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 12:12 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> > Andy >> > >> > I'm not sure if what I am going to discuss fits this topic or not. >> > I have been wondering about the centrality of *fluency* as a key >> component >> > of early reading. Fluency as a construct involves rate, [automaticity] >> > accuracy, and prosody. >> > Recently *prosody* and its centrality to developing reading skill is >> being >> > lytically explored. >> > Prosody involves intonation and *pausing* as markers of turn taking in >> > communicative acts. >> > Bakhtin's construct of *answerability* as central to utterances [turn >> > taking within communicative acts] also involves *intonation* and >> *prosody* >> > as central and primary. >> > >> > Intonation and prosody express the emotional aspect of communicative >> acts >> > as forms of *conversation* which is Gadamer's central notion within >> > philosophical hermeneutics. >> > >> > I have been wondering if anyone is linking up the centrality of prosody >> > [intonation and pausing as emotional markers] within BOTH conversational >> > utterances and early reading instruction. >> > >> > The suffix *lytical* meaning to dissolve or loosen and the notion of >> > *pausing* or *gaps* within communicative acts as *answerability* may >> share >> > common features. >> > >> > Is there such a word as dia-lytical?? [dia meaning seeing through] >> > Seeing through loosening and dissolving - NOT overcoming?? >> > >> > This is very stream of consciousness but I'm asking myself these >> questions >> > so thought I would think out loud. >> > >> > Larry >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 10:19 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> >> wrote: >> > >> > > I'm putting it back on xmca as requested, Greg. >> > > Further investigation led me to the fact that the suffix "-lytical" >> means >> > > "to dissolve." Perhaps Vygotsky had a cinematic metaphor in mind, >> > changing >> > > from one scene, or situation, to another, by a dissolve? /Kritikos/, >> the >> > > root for "critical", on the other hand, means judgment or discernment, >> > > which I take to be a one-or-the-other process. >> > > >> > > In my reading of "The Problem of Age" I did not gain from the material >> > > about the lytical periods much about breaking down. It was much more >> > about >> > > consolidating and strengthening newly acquired forms of activity in >> > > preparation perhaps for breaking out of the situation in a critical >> phase >> > > of development. The critical phases are famously destructive of >> course. >> > > >> > > On the side, I would really urge xmca-ers who work in literacy to >> please >> > > join in. I am a social philosopher who wants to ally myself with a >> living >> > > and robust current of psychology, but I am not myself an elementary >> > school >> > > teacher and know almost nothing about learning to read. The article >> Mike >> > > wants me to read (and which I am still reading and will forward to the >> > list >> > > when I am done) is totally rivetting stuff. Written 24 years ago it >> > engages >> > > Vygotsky, Luria and A N Leontyev and is so sophisticated it bowls me >> over >> > > really. But I am still searching for something I could *disagree* >> with. >> > > >> > > Andy >> > > >> > > Greg Thompson wrote: >> > > >> > >> Not OK just yet. I'd like to try to do some dissolving of your >> parsing >> > of >> > >> "lytic" a bit. >> > >> >> > >> I thought you said you were parsing (lysing?) "lytic" as "gradual"? >> > >> "Gradual" seems very different from "loosening" or "dissolving", no? >> > >> >> > >> The process may be gradual, but to say that "lytical" means >> "gradual" is >> > >> like saying that "boiling" means "gradual" (after all it takes time >> for >> > >> water to boil - esp. if you are watching it). >> > >> >> > >> It seems like there is something very important in the rest of the >> word >> > >> "lytic" and how that relates to development. It seems that part of >> what >> > is >> > >> being described here is the sense in which developments can actually >> > >> involve the breaking down (lysing!) of previous psychological >> > "structures" >> > >> or "formations". That seems much more interesting than "gradual". >> And it >> > >> also seems a wonderful corrective to the commonly assumed model of >> > >> development as simple linear progression. >> > >> >> > >> For example, there is a classic example of language learning where >> very >> > >> young kids will say conjugate verbs correctly b.c. they are >> memorized, >> > but >> > >> then when they start to learn the rules of conjugation, they will no >> > longer >> > >> produce them correctly (b.c. some don't fit the patterns that they >> are >> > >> learning - e.g., past tense of "run" is not "runned"). So their >> > memorized >> > >> understanding of "ran" must be "lysed"! The result is that from the >> > >> dissolving of those meanings a new meaning can emerge - e.g., add >> "ed" >> > to >> > >> the present tense of a verb to make it past tense. >> > >> What do you think? >> > >> >> > >> I'd be interested in opening this conversation to XMCA if you are >> > >> interested. Many folks smarter than I when it comes to translation >> and >> > such. >> > >> >> > >> -greg >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 7:06 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net >> <mailto: >> > >> ablunden@mira.net>> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> check the definitions for the suffix "-lytical." They mean >> > >> "loosening or dissolving." OK? >> > >> andy >> > >> -- >> > ------------------------------**------------------------------ >> > >> **------------ >> > >> *Andy Blunden* >> > >> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ < >> > http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/ >> > >> **> >> > >> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> -- >> > >> Gregory A. Thompson, Ph.D. >> > >> 883 Spencer W. Kimball Tower >> > >> Department of Anthropology >> > >> Brigham Young University >> > >> Provo, UT 84602 >> > >> http://byu.academia.edu/**GregoryThompson< >> > http://byu.academia.edu/GregoryThompson> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > -- >> > > ------------------------------**------------------------------** >> > > ------------ >> > > *Andy Blunden* >> > > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ >> > > Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts >> > > >> > > ______________________________**____________ >> > > _____ >> > > xmca mailing list >> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca< >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca> >> > > >> > __________________________________________ >> > _____ >> > xmca mailing list >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> > >> __________________________________________ >> _____ >> xmca mailing list >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> > > __________________________________________ _____ xmca mailing list xmca@weber.ucsd.edu http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca