Re: [xmca] "Rising to the concrete"

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

probably nothing much, Andy. I have a family fest at my house as of this
noon and will be extra flakey for a week.
mike

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:

> I always enjoy these kind of observations, Mike, but I still don't know
> what perception of made-up objects in the laboratory has to do with
> abstract and concrete. I would be very grateful if you could share that
> with us Mike,
>
> Andy
>
> mike cole wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the extra connections, Peg. I'll track them down and perhaps
>> we can return to Sayeki's work if people find it useful.
>>
>> mike
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Peg Griffin <peg.griffin@att.net<mailto:
>> peg.griffin@att.net>> wrote:
>>
>>     There are some recent studies of PM (physical manipulation) and CM
>>     (computer manipulation) and IM (imaginary manipulation) that might
>>     be interesting to consider here, Mike and Andy ( more the studies
>>     themselves than the framework/background that motivate them.)
>>          Here's the general issue and some references:
>>     Kids who read sometimes don't comprehend.     Telling them to
>> visualize or imagine (IM) as a comprehension
>>     strategy is like telling a sad person to be happy. They don't
>>     really see what it means to go about that.
>>     But, if they learn to do PM or CM while reading some passages and
>>     then are advised to do the same but without the physical objects
>>     or the interactive computer objects (so it is IM), they can then
>>     do the IM and even do it on new passages they never did any PM or
>>     CM on. It works on narrative and expository passages.
>>     Glenberg, A.M., Goldberg, A. B. & Zhu, X. (2011)  Improving early
>>     reading comprehension using embodied CAI. Instructional Sciences,
>>     39(1), 27–39.
>>     Glenberg, A.M., Willford, J., Gibson, B., Goldberg, A. B. & Zhu,
>>     X. (2011). Improving reading to improve math. Scientific Studies
>>     of Reading. DOI: 10.1080/10888438.2011.564245
>>     Glenberg, A.M., Sato, M. & Cattaneo, L.  (2011).  Use-induced
>>     motor plasticity affects the processing of abstract and concrete
>>     language.  Current Biology, 18(7), R290-291
>>          It's reminiscent of our marshmallow simulations of those
>>     genetically primary Pond problems, huh, Mike?
>>     And here is one older piece along the same lines that might be
>>     interesting to look at – the abstract starts this way: “This
>>     article explores the nature of the conceptual knowledge retrieved
>>     when people use words to think about objects. Suppose that
>>     conceptual knowledge is used to simulate and guide action in the
>>     world.”
>>     Borghi, A. M., Glenberg, A. M. &. Kaschak, M. P. (2004). Putting
>>     words in perspective.  Memory and Cognition.  32 (6), 863-873Peg
>>
>>     --- On Wed, 8/15/12, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>     <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>     From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>
>>
>>     Subject: Re: [xmca] "Rising to the concrete"
>>     To: lchcmike@gmail.com <mailto:lchcmike@gmail.com>
>>
>>     Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>>     <mailto:xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>>
>>
>>     Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2012, 9:21 PM
>>
>>
>>
>>     As I see it Mike, the reason that a set-up which facilitates the
>>     subject imaginatively putting themselves into the object, leads to
>>     quicker solution of the problem because it mobilises the highly
>>     developed sense we have of our own body. Although wrong about much
>>     else, I think Lakoff was right about the central place of spatial
>>     and other visceral metaphors lying at the root of our ability to
>>     understand things, including concept formation and the formation
>>     of language. Likewise, I think the whole range of social feelings
>>     we have - shame, fear of disapproval, desire for recognition,
>>     respect for norms of behaviour, etc., as well as knowledge of the
>>     various objects which populate our social world, key in our
>>     understanding of concepts which have an essentially social
>>     existence. Just as my feet and shoulders twitch when I watch a
>>     tennis match, I think similar but deeper processes are going on
>>     when I recognise or think about things which are conceptualised in a
>>      particular way in the social environment I am in. If this is the
>>     kind of thing you have in mind, then I believe I understand you.
>>     The same considerations also engage the concepts of abstract and
>>     concrete, but you seemed to be hinting at a more immediate
>>     connection which at the moment is just escaping me.
>>
>>     Perhaps you could explain?
>>
>>     Andy
>>
>>     mike cole wrote:
>>     Thanks for posting the link to the paper, Andy.
>>
>>     I believe that a starting point is to ask the following question(s):
>>
>>
>>     1. What is it that accounts for the increase in time to carry out
>>     a mental rotation for the plain
>>     conglomeration of blocks?
>>
>>
>>     2. Whatever the process is, why is it that the amount of rotation
>>     is irrelevant if the figure has
>>     a schematic face/head on it in a place where it appears person-like?
>>
>>
>>     Maybe all the concrete is between my ears.
>>     mike
>>
>>
>>     On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 8:27 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>     <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
>>
>>     http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/**ap81v3n2.PDF<http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ap81v3n2.PDF>p.16
>>
>>     Mike, I also, at first had the same problem with motorscooter
>>     indicator, and I used a different but similar tactic to overcome
>>     it. Also, as a civil engineer I learnt that it was essential to
>>     imagine yourself as the building in order to nknow where the
>>     stresses would be and effectively design it, and most difficult
>>     problems, up to the point of calculations could be solved this way.
>>
>>     But ... :) ... I can't see what this has to do with abstract and
>>     concrete. Can you explain?
>>
>>
>>     Andy
>>
>>     mike cole wrote:
>>
>>     A wonderful paper by Yutaka Sayeki (with two key figures reversed,
>>     but it is obvious where the mistake was made when you read it) has
>>     an example of what I take to be almost a "measure" of rising to
>>     the concrete (see also Davydov's ideas on the topic).
>>
>>     Its part of a special issue of the newsletter. Accessible to
>>     anyone at lchc.ucsd.edu <http://lchc.ucsd.edu> <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
>>
>>
>>     *
>>
>>     Volume 3, Number 2 April 1981
>>
>>     *
>>
>>     AZUMA, Hiroshi: /A Note on Cross-Cultural Study/
>>
>>     INAGAKI, Kayoko: /Facilitation of Knowledge Integration through /
>>
>>     /Classroom Discussion/
>>
>>     KASHIWAGI, Keiko: /Note on the Socialization Processes in Japan/
>>
>>     HATANO, Giyoo, KUHARA, Keiko, and AKIYAMA, Michael: /Kanji Help /
>>
>>     /Readers of Japanese Infer the Meaning of Unfamiliar Words/
>>
>>     SAITO, Hirofumi/: Toward Comparative Studies in Reading Kanji and /
>>
>>     /Kana/
>>
>>     SAYEKI, Yutaka: /"Body Analogy" and the Cognition of Rotated Figures/
>>
>>
>>     On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 5:24 AM, Huw Lloyd
>>     <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com <mailto:huw.softdesigns@gmail.**com<huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
>> >
>>     <mailto:huw.softdesigns@gmail.**com <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>
>>
>>     <mailto:huw.softdesigns@gmail.**com <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>>>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>         On 15 August 2012 13:01, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
>>     <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>
>>         <mailto:ablunden@mira.net <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>>> wrote:
>>
>>         > Well, these issues are not going to be solved in 5 minutes, Huw.
>>         Analog
>>         > and digital belong to a completely different frame than the
>>         concepts of
>>         > abstract/concrete and general/universal which I think Greg asked
>>         about
>>         > initially.
>>         >
>>
>>         Analog was an elaboration.  This point is not necessary to resolve
>>         "universal" in the Lenin quote.
>>
>>         Huw
>>
>>
>>         >
>>         > Let me be brief then. Ilyenkov famously makes the point that
>>         (exchange)
>>         > value is an ideal, but it is also real. The market implements a
>>         process of
>>         > abstracting the value of commodities but it is the very
>>         concreteness of the
>>         > market which makes that process possible.
>>
>>         Democracy is an ideal which really motivates millions of
>>     people and
>>         > underpins constitutional governments.
>>         >
>>
>>         > Universal suffrage allows that insane people, criminals and
>>         children do
>>         > not vote. And what is more, when the President is elected, only
>>         the votes
>>         > of 51% count. (There are of course plenty of "Ah, but ..."s
>>         about this, but
>>         > this is what is meant by the difference between the general
>>     and the
>>         > universal.)
>>         >
>>         > http://www.marxists.org/****reference/archive/hegel/works/****<http://www.marxists.org/**reference/archive/hegel/works/**>
>>         >
>>            sl/slsubjec.htm#SL163n1b<http:**//www.marxists.org/reference/*
>> *archive/hegel/works/sl/**slsubjec.htm#SL163n1b<http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sl/slsubjec.htm#SL163n1b>
>> >
>>         >
>>         > Andy
>>         >
>>         >
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>>
>>
>>     --
>>     ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>> ------------
>>     *Andy Blunden*
>>     Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/
>> **>
>>
>>     Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>>
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>>
>>     --
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>>
>>     *Andy Blunden*
>>     Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/ <http://home.mira.net/%7Eandy/
>> **>
>>
>>     Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
>>
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> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> ------------
> *Andy Blunden*
> Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
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