Re: [xmca] "Rising to the concrete"

[Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>]

On 16 August 2012 21:47, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the extra connections, Peg. I'll track them down and perhaps we
> can return to Sayeki's work if people find it useful.
>
>
Yes, I plan on taking a look once I've worked through one of Leontyev's
books.

Huw


> mike
>
> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Peg Griffin <peg.griffin@att.net> wrote:
>
> > There are some recent studies of PM (physical manipulation) and CM
> > (computer manipulation) and IM (imaginary manipulation) that might be
> > interesting to consider here, Mike and Andy ( more the studies themselves
> > than the framework/background that motivate them.)
> >
> > Here's the general issue and some references:
> > Kids who read sometimes don't comprehend.
> > Telling them to visualize or imagine (IM) as a comprehension strategy is
> > like telling a sad person to be happy. They don't really see what it
> means
> > to go about that.
> > But, if they learn to do PM or CM while reading some passages and then
> are
> > advised to do the same but without the physical objects or the
> interactive
> > computer objects (so it is IM), they can then do the IM and even do it on
> > new passages they never did any PM or CM on. It works on narrative and
> > expository passages.
> > Glenberg, A.M., Goldberg, A. B. & Zhu, X. (2011)  Improving early reading
> > comprehension using embodied CAI. Instructional Sciences, 39(1), 27–39.
> > Glenberg, A.M., Willford, J., Gibson, B., Goldberg, A. B. & Zhu, X.
> > (2011). Improving reading to improve math. Scientific Studies of Reading.
> > DOI: 10.1080/10888438.2011.564245
> > Glenberg, A.M., Sato, M. & Cattaneo, L.  (2011).  Use-induced motor
> > plasticity affects the processing of abstract and concrete language.
> >  Current Biology, 18(7), R290-291
> >
> > It's reminiscent of our marshmallow simulations of those genetically
> > primary Pond problems, huh, Mike?
> > And here is one older piece along the same lines that might be
> interesting
> > to look at – the abstract starts this way: “This article explores the
> > nature of the conceptual knowledge retrieved when people use words to
> think
> > about objects. Suppose that conceptual knowledge is used to simulate and
> > guide action in the world.”
> > Borghi, A. M., Glenberg, A. M. &. Kaschak, M. P. (2004). Putting words in
> > perspective.  Memory and Cognition.  32 (6), 863-873Peg
> >
> > --- On Wed, 8/15/12, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] "Rising to the concrete"
> > To: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2012, 9:21 PM
> >
> >
> >
> > As I see it Mike, the reason that a set-up which facilitates the subject
> > imaginatively putting themselves into the object, leads to quicker
> solution
> > of the problem because it mobilises the highly developed sense we have of
> > our own body. Although wrong about much else, I think Lakoff was right
> > about the central place of spatial and other visceral metaphors lying at
> > the root of our ability to understand things, including concept formation
> > and the formation of language. Likewise, I think the whole range of
> social
> > feelings we have - shame, fear of disapproval, desire for recognition,
> > respect for norms of behaviour, etc., as well as knowledge of the various
> > objects which populate our social world, key in our understanding of
> > concepts which have an essentially social existence. Just as my feet and
> > shoulders twitch when I watch a tennis match, I think similar but deeper
> > processes are going on when I recognise or think about things which are
> > conceptualised in a
> >  particular way in the social environment I am in. If this is the kind of
> > thing you have in mind, then I believe I understand you. The same
> > considerations also engage the concepts of abstract and concrete, but you
> > seemed to be hinting at a more immediate connection which at the moment
> is
> > just escaping me.
> >
> > Perhaps you could explain?
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > mike cole wrote:
> > Thanks for posting the link to the paper, Andy.
> >
> >
> > I believe that a starting point is to ask the following question(s):
> >
> >
> > 1. What is it that accounts for the increase in time to carry out a
> mental
> > rotation for the plain
> > conglomeration of blocks?
> >
> >
> > 2. Whatever the process is, why is it that the amount of rotation is
> > irrelevant if the figure has
> > a schematic face/head on it in a place where it appears person-like?
> >
> >
> > Maybe all the concrete is between my ears.
> > mike
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 8:27 AM, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net> wrote:
> >
> > http://lchc.ucsd.edu/Histarch/ap81v3n2.PDF p.16
> >
> > Mike, I also, at first had the same problem with motorscooter indicator,
> > and I used a different but similar tactic to overcome it. Also, as a
> civil
> > engineer I learnt that it was essential to imagine yourself as the
> building
> > in order to nknow where the stresses would be and effectively design it,
> > and most difficult problems, up to the point of calculations could be
> > solved this way.
> >
> > But ... :) ... I can't see what this has to do with abstract and
> concrete.
> > Can you explain?
> >
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > mike cole wrote:
> >
> > A wonderful paper by Yutaka Sayeki (with two key figures reversed, but it
> > is obvious where the mistake was made when you read it) has an example of
> > what I take to be almost a "measure" of rising to the concrete (see also
> > Davydov's ideas on the topic).
> >
> > Its part of a special issue of the newsletter. Accessible to anyone at
> > lchc.ucsd.edu <http://lchc.ucsd.edu>
> >
> > *
> >
> > Volume 3, Number 2 April 1981
> >
> > *
> >
> > AZUMA, Hiroshi: /A Note on Cross-Cultural Study/
> >
> > INAGAKI, Kayoko: /Facilitation of Knowledge Integration through /
> >
> > /Classroom Discussion/
> >
> > KASHIWAGI, Keiko: /Note on the Socialization Processes in Japan/
> >
> > HATANO, Giyoo, KUHARA, Keiko, and AKIYAMA, Michael: /Kanji Help /
> >
> > /Readers of Japanese Infer the Meaning of Unfamiliar Words/
> >
> > SAITO, Hirofumi/: Toward Comparative Studies in Reading Kanji and /
> >
> > /Kana/
> >
> > SAYEKI, Yutaka: /"Body Analogy" and the Cognition of Rotated Figures/
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 5:24 AM, Huw Lloyd <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com
> <mailto:
> > huw.softdesigns@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >     On 15 August 2012 13:01, Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net
> >     <mailto:ablunden@mira.net>> wrote:
> >
> >     > Well, these issues are not going to be solved in 5 minutes, Huw.
> >     Analog
> >     > and digital belong to a completely different frame than the
> >     concepts of
> >     > abstract/concrete and general/universal which I think Greg asked
> >     about
> >     > initially.
> >     >
> >
> >     Analog was an elaboration.  This point is not necessary to resolve
> >     "universal" in the Lenin quote.
> >
> >     Huw
> >
> >
> >     >
> >     > Let me be brief then. Ilyenkov famously makes the point that
> >     (exchange)
> >     > value is an ideal, but it is also real. The market implements a
> >     process of
> >     > abstracting the value of commodities but it is the very
> >     concreteness of the
> >     > market which makes that process possible.
> >
> >     Democracy is an ideal which really motivates millions of people and
> >     > underpins constitutional governments.
> >     >
> >
> >     > Universal suffrage allows that insane people, criminals and
> >     children do
> >     > not vote. And what is more, when the President is elected, only
> >     the votes
> >     > of 51% count. (There are of course plenty of "Ah, but ..."s
> >     about this, but
> >     > this is what is meant by the difference between the general and the
> >     > universal.)
> >     >
> >     > http://www.marxists.org/**reference/archive/hegel/works/**
> >     >
> >     sl/slsubjec.htm#SL163n1b<
> >
> http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/sl/slsubjec.htm#SL163n1b
> > >
> >     >
> >     > Andy
> >     >
> >     >
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *Andy Blunden*
> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> > Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> >
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> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > *Andy Blunden*
> > Home Page: http://home.mira.net/~andy/
> > Book: http://www.brill.nl/concepts
> >
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> >
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