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Re: [xmca] Smolucha - pronunciation/genealogy (Systems of functions &Aristotelian concepts)
So strange how things become apparent as a person engages in constructive
understanding. To remind myself of the phrase "turtles all the way down",
I came across the following quote from Aristotle:
"The other party agreement Aristotle refers to sure sounds like culture to
me
Some hold that, owing to the necessity of knowing the primary premises,
there is no scientific knowledge. Others think there is, but that all
truths are demonstrable. Neither doctrine is either true or a necessary
deduction from the premises. The first school, assuming that there is no
way of knowing other than by demonstration, maintain that an infinite
regress is involved, on the ground that if behind the prior stands no
primary, we could not know the posterior through the prior (wherein they
are right, for one cannot traverse an infinite series): if on the other
hand – they say – the series terminates and there are primary premises,
yet these are unknowable because incapable of demonstration, which
according to them is the only form of knowledge. And since thus one cannot
know the primary premises, knowledge of the conclusions which follow from
them is not pure scientific knowledge nor properly knowing at all, but
rests on the mere supposition that the premises are true. The other party
agree with them as regards knowing, holding that it is only possible by
demonstration, but they see no difficulty in holding that all truths are
demonstrated, on the ground that demonstration may be circular and
reciprocal.
Our own doctrine is that not all knowledge is demonstrative: on the
contrary, knowledge of the immediate premises is independent of
demonstration. (The necessity of this is obvious; for since we must know
the prior premises from which the demonstration is drawn, and since the
regress must end in immediate truths, those truths must be
indemonstrable.) Such, then, is our doctrine, and in addition we maintain
that besides scientific knowledge there is its original source which
enables us to recognize the definitions.
”
— Aristotle, Posterior Analytics (Book 1, Part 3, verses 1 and 2)
t
From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
To: vygotsky@unm.edu
Cc: "eXtended Mind, Culture,Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
Date: 06/22/2012 06:03 PM
Subject: Re: [xmca] Smolucha - pronunciation/genealogy (Systems of
functions &Aristotelian concepts)
Sent by: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
Hi Vera!-- I agree re exact repitition. A long time ago Bernstein did a
study where he asked experts to repeat a simple act like
hitting a hammer with a nail. There is an envelope of responses all of
which "count as the same" but
never the same if you look closely enough. Turtles all the way down.
The creativity discussion, if there is to be a serious one, should maybe
start with John-Steiner and Moran!
(Teacher)
mike
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Vera John-Steiner
<vygotsky@unm.edu>wrote:
> Hi Mike et al,
>
> I think the notion of seeking perfect replication is one that bears
> scrutiny
> It may work for producing identical buttons or screws but not for music,
or
> children's language acquisition where toddlers produce forms that are
more
> efficient than the full adult form but they are different from what they
> hear. Variations are super abundant and even in mathematics there are
> multiple proofs for the same problem, some more elegant than others.
> Adaptation to a changing environment requites exploration,
problem-solving,
> and intentional search. The blind variation model that some creativity
> researchers espouse goes counter observed human behavior. Imitation is
part
> of learning but so is exploration. And creativity is rooted in these
human
> behaviors but cannot be reduced to them as it also requires, in its
> sustained projects, shared intent.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
On
> Behalf Of mike cole
> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 8:59 AM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: Re: [xmca] Smolucha - pronunciation/genealogy (Systems of
> functions
> &Aristotelian concepts)
>
> That article Peter sent by David Cohen pushes on history in helpful
ways,
> Collete-- thanks Peter.
>
> But my guess is that Cohen himself does not track things back far
enough,
> nor do I think that that
> restricting the question to the history of the US or Europe is
sufficient.
> Its a puzzle.
>
> I think this also relates back to interest in creativity in recent
> discussions. How DOES the new arise from
> a system that seeks perfect replication? Only by deviation/error which
> turns out to have a future, chosen
> by a blind watchmaker? Or does cultural-history introduce a new
ingredient
> that promotes variation and
> culturally-inflected selection?
>
> mike
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 7:46 AM, Colette Murphy <c.a.murphy@qub.ac.uk
> >wrote:
>
> > Wow Peter - the article uses the same observation! I look forward to
> > reading it too - thanks!
> > Colette
> >
> > Dr Colette Murphy
> > Senior Lecturer
> > School of Education
> > 69 University St
> > Queen's University
> > Belfast BT7 1HL
> >
> > tel: 02890975953
> >
> > "Why is it, in spite of the fact that teaching by pouring in, learning
by
> > passive absorption, are universally condemned, that they are still so
> > entrenched in practice?"
> >
> > John Dewey Democracy in Education 1916, Page 46
> > ________________________________________
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> Behalf
> > Of Peter Smagorinsky [smago@uga.edu]
> > Sent: 22 June 2012 13:59
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: RE: [xmca] Smolucha - pronunciation/genealogy (Systems of
> > functions & Aristotelian concepts)
> >
> > Mike et al., the attached article has helped me with Dewey's question.
> > It's not a cultural-historical theory in the Vygotskian sense, but
> situates
> > teaching practice culturally and historically nonetheless. p
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
> On
> > Behalf Of mike Cole
> > Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 8:52 AM
> > To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] Smolucha - pronunciation/genealogy (Systems of
> > functions & Aristotelian concepts)
> >
> > What is the answer to Dewey's question, Colette? That very question
has
> > been on my mind for Zoe time.
> > Mike
> >
> > On Jun 22, 2012, at 5:21 AM, Colette Murphy <c.a.murphy@qub.ac.uk>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks to Martin, Anton and everyone else involved in this
discussion -
> > it helps enormously with issues realting to 'higher psychological
> > functions'!
> > > Colette
> > >
> > >
> > > Dr Colette Murphy
> > > Senior Lecturer
> > > School of Education
> > > 69 University St
> > > Queen's University
> > > Belfast BT7 1HL
> > >
> > > tel: 02890975953
> > >
> > > "Why is it, in spite of the fact that teaching by pouring in,
learning
> > by passive absorption, are universally condemned, that they are still
so
> > entrenched in practice?"
> > >
> > > John Dewey Democracy in Education 1916, Page 46
> > > ________________________________________
> > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On
> > > Behalf Of Martin Packer [packer@duq.edu]
> > > Sent: 22 June 2012 13:18
> > > To: Anton Yasnitsky; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] Smolucha - pronunciation/genealogy (Systems of
> > > functions & Aristotelian concepts)
> > >
> > > Here is the text that Anton and Michael have been referring to.
> > >
> > > Martin
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jun 21, 2012, at 10:09 PM, Anton Yasnitsky wrote:
> > >
> > >> Andy,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I regard mediation etc.pretty vague and, therefore, virtually
> > >> meaningless. Also I regard the whole research program of Vygotsky
> > Circle of their instrumental period of 1920s mechanistic indeed, and
this
> > conclusion I borrow primarily from Vygotsky's own texts in which he
> > severely criticized their own ideas of that period.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Finally, yes, I do find the sharp separation of all psychological
> > >> functions (whatever this means) into either the higher or the lower
> > >> binary, rigid, valuative, and pretty much Aristotelian,
> > >>
> > >> in Lewin's terminology. Under Lewin's strong influence Vygotsky
> > >> realized the flaw in his conceptual system and made a serious
effort
> > >> at making the transition from
> > >>
> > >> Aristotelian to Galileian in his own thinking, but, quite
> > unfortunately, by the time this transition in many respects was made,
he
> > did not have too much time to live:
> > >>
> > >> a couple of years, not more. Which is a pity, indeed.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> AY
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >> From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> > >> To: Anton Yasnitsky <the_yasya@yahoo.com>; "eXtended Mind, Culture,
> > >> Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 10:58:37 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: [xmca] Smolucha - pronunciation/genealogy (Systems of
> > >> functions)
> > >>
> > >> So Anton, you regard mediation of psychlogical functions by
cultural
> > artefacts as "mechanistic" and "binary"?
> > >> Andy
> > >>
> > >> Anton Yasnitsky wrote:
> > >>> Martin,
> > >>>
> > >>> Right, this is exactly my point: much criticized for fairly
> > mechanistic distinction between the lower and the higher in his
earlier
> > work of 1920s, Vygotsky rejected this binary opposition in his later
> > writings of the 1930, although he kept using phrases "higher
functions"
> > or, rather, "higher processes" and the like.
> > >> __________________________________________
> > >> _____
> > >> xmca mailing list
> > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> > >
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> > > _____
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