Mike, you wrote "How about 'culturally mediated' psychological functions?" which i like because it moves away from cause and effect thinking, which is inherent within Vygotsky's thinking, as well as the valence of good, better, best - which i think Mike Rose is avoiding. i'd like to respond to viewing "psychological functions" through a cybernetic lens of Gregory Bateson's work about systems, and learning as systems of change - but first, i just need to babble to settle some jumbled thoughts - ___________________________ Gregory Bateson – whenever the activity involves change for the participant, that change is learning – learning is stochastic – one learns to learn – when solving a problem, problem solving is learned – deutero-learning – apperceptive habits - learning I, rote learning – Learning II, deutero-learning – ___________________________ okay, in a struggle for clarity, here are some definitions of learning according to Bateson. Zero Learning – the specificity of response is not subject to correction Learning I is change in specificity of response within a set of alternatives Learning II is change in the process of Learning I – learning to learn – a corrective change in the set of alternatives from which choice is made Learning III is change in the process of Learning II – a corrective change in the system of sets of alternatives from which choice is made (Bateson suggests that to demand this level of performance in some men (sic) and sometimes mammals is sometimes pathogenic.) Level IV would be a change in Level III, but probably does not occur in any living adult organism on this planet. if one finds these definitions interesting, one would need to read and study the chapter The Logical Categories of Learning and Communication, found in Steps To An Ecology of Mind. furthermore, found within the book are discussions learning within the understandings of recursion, immanent mind, and context - all issues that Vygotsky struggled to work with, though not similarly defined. one area that Bateson discusses that appears to have not occurred to Vygotsky is that all learning is stochastic. one last point - Bateson does not want these levels to be understood as unidirectional - that higher levels are explanatory of lower levels and vice-versa for those who would like a more in-depth discussion that i'm referring to, check out : http://www.som.surrey.ac.uk/NLP/Resources/BatesonLevels2006.pdf as well as look over the attachment. and now to prepare for a valentine's day dinner with my beloved. phillip Phillip White, PhD University of Colorado Denver School of Education phillip.white@ucdenver.edu ________________________________________ From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of mike cole [lchcmike@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 10:42 AM To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [xmca] "higher psychic function" How about "culturally mediated" psychological functions? There is discussion of this issue somewhere in Wertsch, "Voices of the mind" I believe. mike On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 2:28 AM, Rod Parker-Rees < R.Parker-Rees@plymouth.ac.uk> wrote: > I wonder whether there is any way of sidestepping the value system which > is attached to HMF by the use of the word 'higher'. This seems to me to > bring along Piagetian connotations of progress towards the rarefied air of > the snow covered summits of formal operational thinking, away from the > 'swampy lowlands' of more parallel, thick processes. 'Thin mental > functions' would be no good - but what about 'lean mental functions'? > > All the best, > > Rod > > -----Original Message----- > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On > Behalf Of Huw Lloyd > Sent: 13 February 2012 19:47 > To: Vera John-Steiner; eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > Subject: Re: [xmca] "higher psychic function" > > On 13 February 2012 18:17, Vera John-Steiner <vygotsky@unm.edu> wrote: > > > Hi, > > I think "mediatory" is a very awkwars term and it requires quite a bit > > of knowledge about CHAT. Integrated (see David's note ) psychological > > functions may work better, or possibly integrated psychological > > processes. V's point was that "higher" psychological functions > > required the unification of diverse streams of learning, culture and > > development. > > > > Though integrated begs the question of how in particular, and doesn't > relate clearly to qualitative change. > > HMF is simple to say and has a certain mystique. :) > > Huw > > > > Vera > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Huw Lloyd" > > <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com> > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu> > > Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 9:53 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] "higher psychic function" > > > > > > On 13 February 2012 16:21, Colette Murphy <c.a.murphy@qub.ac.uk> wrote: > > > > Hugh > >> Thanks a lot for your reasoning. May I just explain that I was > >> worried that 'higher psychic function' might sound too abstract and > >> psychological for many science educators (including myself). Thus, > >> whilst your suggestion makes perfect sense, I fear that it may also > >> suffer from being too abstract / psychological for my current > >> purpose. Can you make it more concrete perhaps? > >> > >> > > Well it is more concrete, in the Marxian sense. > > > > Really, I would say this hinges on your reference to "scientists". If > > they are scientists they should know, or not be shy of knowing, what a > > homology (structural comparison) is. That a term like mediation > > addresses the phenomena as a scientific system, whereas 'higher' is > > indeed abstract and removed (but familiar from the perspective of > > other psychological theories). > > > > If a term is introduced that is not familiar, then they're atleast > > made aware that the subject may deal with unfamiliar things, rather > > than assimilating them (in the Piagetian sense) to their current > understanding. > > So "Higher" may suffice, for some, from an outside perspective but it > > points in inappropriate ways. "Mediatory" is more precise but points > > to the unknown, which is also truthful to their understanding. > > > > Huw > > > > > > Thanks a million > >> Colette > >> > >> Dr Colette Murphy > >> Senior Lecturer > >> School of Education > >> 69 University St > >> Queen's University > >> Belfast BT7 1HL > >> > >> tel: 02890975953 > >> > >> "Why is it, in spite of the fact that teaching by pouring in, > >> learning by passive absorption, are universally condemned, that they > >> are still so entrenched in practice?" > >> > >> John Dewey Democracy in Education 1916, Page 46 > >> ______________________________**__________ > >> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu] On > >> Behalf Of Huw Lloyd [huw.softdesigns@gmail.com] > >> Sent: 13 February 2012 16:08 > >> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity > >> Subject: Re: [xmca] "higher psychic function" > >> > >> On 13 February 2012 15:57, Bella Kotik-Friedgut > >> <bella.kotik@gmail.com > >> >wrote: > >> > >> > Colette asked for a concept "that it be best > >> > read/understood/accepted > >> by > >> > educationalists (more specifically, science education researchers) > >> > in such a case it seems that "Extension of psychological > >> > mediatory function" does not fit the context Bella Kotik-. > >> > > >> > >> > >> Because.... ? > >> > >> Huw > >> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Huw Lloyd > >> > <huw.softdesigns@gmail.com > >> > >wrote: > >> > > >> > > On 13 February 2012 12:09, Bella Kotik-Friedgut < > >> bella.kotik@gmail.com > >> > > >wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > Dear Colette my off-list note returned rejected by your server, > so: > >> > > > > >> > > > I use "higher mental functions" or sometimes "higher > >> > > > psychological functions", but the first is preferable. > >> > > > -- > >> > > > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > >> > > > > >> > > > On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Colette Murphy < > >> c.a.murphy@qub.ac.uk > >> > > > >wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > > Dear All > >> > > > > I'd be very interested to hear your views on how to > >> > edit/reword/rewrite > >> > > > > the phrase "higher psychic function" in relation to > >> > > > > Vygotsky's CH > >> > > theory > >> > > > so > >> > > > > that it be best read/understood/accepted by educationalists > >> > > > > (more specifically, science education researchers)? > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Perhaps it would be better to use a term that pointed to the > > > >> phenomena, > >> > > such as "Extension of psychological mediatory function". "Higher" > >> > relates > >> > > the phenomena to other psychological theories but points away > >> > > from the phenomena -- one is left considering why one function is > >> > > higher than another whilst embedding the ideas in an > >> > > (unnecessary) analogical > >> > framework > >> > > of "height = abstraction" or "higher as in high church" in which > >> > > case > >> one > >> > > is even further removed from a precise formulation using a > > > >> metaphorical > >> > > frame. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > I'm happy to engage off-list > >> > > > > if this query is better treated that way. > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > This is clearly on-topic in many ways. > >> > > > >> > > Kind regards, > >> > > Huw > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Thanks a million > >> > > > > Colette > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Dr Colette Murphy > >> > > > > Senior Lecturer > >> > > > > School of Education > >> > > > > 69 University St > >> > > > > Queen's University > >> > > > > Belfast BT7 1HL > >> > > > > > >> > > > > tel: 02890975953 > >> > > > > > >> > > > > "Why is it, in spite of the fact that teaching by pouring in, > >> > learning > >> > > by > >> > > > > passive absorption, are universally condemned, that they are > >> > > > > still > >> so > >> > > > > entrenched in practice?" > >> > > > > > >> > > > > John Dewey Democracy in Education 1916, Page 46 > >> > > > > ______________________________**__________ > >> > > > > ______________________________**____________ > >> > > > > _____ > >> > > > > xmca mailing list > >> > > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > >> > > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.e > >> > > > > du/mailman/listinfo/xmca> > >> > > > > > >> > > > ______________________________**____________ > >> > > > _____ > >> > > > xmca mailing list > >> > > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > >> > > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu > >> > > > /mailman/listinfo/xmca> > >> > > > > >> > > ______________________________**____________ > >> > > _____ > >> > > xmca mailing list > >> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > >> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/m > >> > > ailman/listinfo/xmca> > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Sincerely yours Bella Kotik-Friedgut > >> > ______________________________**____________ > >> > _____ > >> > xmca mailing list > >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mai > >> > lman/listinfo/xmca> > >> > > >> ______________________________**____________ > >> _____ > >> xmca mailing list > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailm > >> an/listinfo/xmca> ______________________________**____________ > >> _____ > >> xmca mailing list > >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailm > >> an/listinfo/xmca> > >> > >> ______________________________**____________ > > _____ > > xmca mailing list > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailma > > n/listinfo/xmca> > > > > ______________________________**____________ > > _____ > > xmca mailing list > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/**listinfo/xmca<http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailma > > n/listinfo/xmca> > > > __________________________________________ > _____ > xmca mailing list > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > __________________________________________ > _____ > xmca mailing list > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca > __________________________________________ _____ xmca mailing list xmca@weber.ucsd.edu http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
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