Re: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

I agree that metonymies, as you call them, are important in thinking about
developmental change,
Achilles. One that has wide implications are studies of gender development,
where, since the work of
Barrie Thorne at least, it has been clear that various generalizations made
about stage-like changes as if they were uniform are in fact "synopotic
illusions" created by metonymous thinking which covers up the heterorgeneity
that is a central part of the dynamics of development.
mike

On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 7:17 AM, Achilles Delari Junior <
achilles_delari@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> See, Mike and David,
>
> "Zone" (in the term "zona bizhaishego razvitiia") is a kind of metaphor, as
> well, a "spatial metaphor" for a important dynamic aspect of the development
> of higher mental functions. But if we can assume that "development" can not
> be only a "spatial" reality, we must conclude that "zone" is some kind of
> metaphor, among other... However, the entire term "ZPD" could socially gain
> some kind of "conceptual" status, spite it initially could be a kind of
> metaphor-based generalization ---> I don't know this if is about Robert's
> concerning... In my point of view, something interesting for think about, in
> scientific generalizations, are also the "metonymies"  - mostly when we take
> a part by the whole... "Consciousness is the object of psychology" [When it
> could be "is the main object", not exactly "the only one object"]; or
> "personality is drama" [when it could be "personality is also [like a]
> drama, not exactly "only a drama"]; etc... Sometimes, a "metonymic process"
> can tuns a kind of "hyperbole" for this reason, what can turns something
> "dangerous"...
> :-)
>
> Achilles.
>
>
> > Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 06:31:12 -0700
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor
> > From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> > To: vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> > CC: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >
> > Glad it resonates for you, David. I was not disagreeing. I was simply
> > stating, I guess simple mindedly stating, that I did not understand what
> > Robert meant by 1) the dialectical relationship between personal metaphor
> > creation and the processes involved in the "assimilation of terminology"
> and
> > 2) how whatever #1 means, this provides an example of Vygotsky's quest
> for
> > synthesis between the disparate views of early 20th century psychology?
> >
> > I think I know what is meant by #2. But what is a personal metaphor (one
> a
> > person just made up, de novo?) and what is mean by "the processes
> involved
> > in "the assimilation of terminology."?
> >
> > If my confusion is a personal failure (quite likely!) drop the matter and
> I
> > will hope for enlightenment as the conversation continues. The comments
> just
> > go by too quickly for me. Now i am stuck on sense-eggs in the
> meaning-nest
> > of other psychologists!
> >
> > Slow in so cal.
> > mike
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 1:25 AM, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> >wrote:
> >
> > > Mike--
> > >
> > > I know, I'm speaking out of turn. But let me say more. I know exactly
> what
> > > he's getting at, and I completely agree.
> > >
> > > Vygotsky is a thieving magpie, a larcenous cuckoo with meanings. I mean
> (by
> > > that ungainly metaphor) that he tends to lay his sense-eggs in the
> > > meaning-nests of other psychologists.
> > >
> > > Just think of:
> > >
> > > a) "aesthetic reaction" (Vygotsky laying the egg of "answerability" in
> > > Kornilov's reactological nest)
> > >
> > > b) "syncretic heap" (Vygotsky laying the egg of his scheme of concept
> > > formation based on Hegel's logic in the nest of Piagetian
> "syncretism".)
> > >
> > > c) "egocentric speech" (verbal thinking laid in Piaget's nest)
> > >
> > > d) "pseudoconcept" (the concept-for-others left in the nest of Stern's
> > > personalism)
> > >
> > > e) "structure" (the distinction between higher and lower psychological
> > > functions left in the next of the Gestaltists, who recognize no such
> > > distinction)
> > >
> > > All of these are words stolen from the lips of others, often others in
> > > schools to which Vygotsky is violently hostile. Think of Vygotsky's
> > > denunciation of Stern--in Moscow, right to his face!--using phrases
> from
> > > Moliere's "Medecin malgre lui", think of all of those long
> "prefaces"--to
> > > Thorndike, to Lazursky, to Piaget himself--that have the effect of
> > > converting the following book to a historical document or a negative
> example
> > > of how to proceed.
> > >
> > > The eggs lovingly laid by opponent schools are slyly tipped out for the
> > > snakes and rats to devour, and a completely new content is laid down
> > > instead. The problem is that a synthesis, for Vygotsky, does NOT mean
> > > splitting the difference, or "sewing a cows lips to a horse's head" (as
> we
> > > say in China). It means going in another direction entirely, hence the
> > > spiral.
> > >
> > > David Kellogg
> > > Seoul National University of Education
> > >
> > > --- On *Thu, 10/7/10, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>* wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor
> > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 7:20 PM
> > >
> > >
> > > You need to say more for me, Robert. How would that work?
> > >
> > > Spirals. Now there is an interesting geometric shape to consider. How
> did
> > > Bruner deploy it?
> > >
> > > mike
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Robert Lake <
> boblake@georgiasouthern.edu<
> http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > David,
> > > > Could the dialectical relationship between personal metaphor creation
> and
> > > > the processes involved in the "assimilation of terminology" provide
> an
> > > > example of Vygotsky's quest for synthesis between the disparate views
> of
> > > > early 20th century psychology?  Or perhaps to use Bruner's metaphor
> of
> > > the
> > > > spiral staircase........need I say more?
> > > > RL
> > > >
> > > > Robert Lake  Ed.D.
> > > >  Assistant Professor
> > > >  Social Foundations of Education
> > > >  Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
> > > >  Georgia Southern University
> > > >  P. O. Box 8144
> > > >  Phone: (912) 478-5125
> > > >  Fax: (912) 478-5382
> > > >  Statesboro, GA  30460
> > > >
> > > > "Democracy must be born anew in every generation and education is its
> > > > midwife".
> > > > -John Dewey
> > > >
> > > > >>> David Kellogg  10/07/10 8:07 PM >>>
> > > > Vygotsky's metaphors are many and varied: peas in a sack (child
> > > concepts),
> > > > guerrilla warfare vs. prolonged seige (theoretical vs. empirical
> > > research),
> > > > and my all-time favorite, "science concepts do not drop into the
> child's
> > > > mouth like a flock of already roasted-pigeons".
> > > >
> > > > But it seems to me that any discussion of his use of analogy should
> > > include
> > > > his discussion of the LIMITS of metaphor. This is in the context of
> his
> > > > analogy between the learning of scientific concepts and the learing
> of
> > > > foreign language words, which can be found, in the Minick
> translation, in
> > > > Volume One, p. 223, of the Collected Works. Here's OUR translation:
> > > >
> > > > "In substance, our analogy always treats the development of two
> aspects
> > > of
> > > > a single and same process by their psychological nature: verbal
> thinking.
> > > In
> > > > the one case, that of the foreign language, what comes into the
> forefront
> > > is
> > > > the external, sonorous, phasal* properties of verbal thinking; in the
> > > other,
> > > > the development of scientific concepts, it is the semantic process of
> the
> > > > same process. For this reason the assimilation of a foreign language
> > > > doubtless requires, even though in a minimal measure, the mastery of
> the
> > > > semantic aspect of the foreign language, just as the development of
> > > > scientific concept requires, even to a minimal extent, some effort to
> > > master
> > > > scientific language, the symbols of science, which intervene in an
> > > evident
> > > > fashion during the assimilation of terminology and symbolic systems,
> such
> > > as
> > > > that of arithmetic. For this reason, one might expect from the very
> > > > beginning that we might find the analogy that we are developing here.
> Yet
> > > we
> > > > know
> > > >  that the development of the phasal and semantic aspects of language
> do
> > > not
> > > > repeat themselves but follow specific ways, and so we must expect
> that
> > > our
> > > > analogy will prove to be incomplete like any other analogy and that
> the
> > > > assimilation of a foreign language with respect to the maternal
> tongue
> > > shall
> > > > present resemblances to the development of scientific concepts with
> > > respect
> > > > to that of everyday concepts in some determined relations, while in
> > > others
> > > > there will be profound differences."
> > > >
> > > > And it seems to me that there's a very SIMPLE explanation for the
> failure
> > > > of the analogy, too. Every foreign language represents, in the final
> > > > analysis, somebody ELSE'S everyday concepts.
> > > >
> > > > David Kellogg
> > > > Seoul National University of Education
> > > >
> > > > --- On Thu, 10/7/10, Achilles Delari Junior  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Achilles Delari Junior
> > > > Subject: RE: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor
> > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<
> http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > > Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 4:37 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well...
> > > >
> > > > I also remember that in 1929 Vygotsky compared old psychological
> views
> > > with
> > > > the "Comedia del'Arte", because the fixed roles of the psychic
> functions
> > > > compared to the fixed roles of the characters in that kind of
> drama...
> > > This
> > > > is at the paper "Concrete human psychology" in English it was
> published
> > > at
> > > > Soviet Psychology, 1989, v. 17, n. 2 - but I don't have my copy of
> the
> > > > English version here anymore.... only a Portuguese version. In the
> same
> > > text
> > > > is present also the metaphor about consciousness as telephonist in
> > > contrast
> > > > and complementation to Pavlovian metaphor about brain as telephonic
> > > central,
> > > > if I remember well... This same subject was repeatead at the book
> "The
> > > > history of development of higher mental functions" from 1931 (In
> Spanish
> > > > edition of the Works, as in Russian, it is the Volume III)... A
> metaphor
> > > > with trains and rails was used as well, in reflexological discussion,
> for
> > > a
> > > > comparison with Sherrignton's contributions about much more afferent
> ways
> > > >  (rails) than efferent ones... but by memory I don't know more if
> this is
> > > > at that reflexological text from 1924 or from 1925... (Consciousness
> as
> > > > problem of behavior psychology). In the Psychology of Art, certainly
> he
> > > also
> > > > repeat the Sherington formulation, but I am not so sure about where
> was
> > > the
> > > > "train metaphor"... If you have interest in this "train" metaphor, I
> can
> > > > localize the actual sources, for this too...
> > > >
> > > > Best.
> > > >
> > > > Achilles.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 15:05:08 -0700
> > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor
> > > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com<
> http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<
> http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > > >
> > > > > Woa, not so sure about the train track metaphor. The train moves
> freely
> > > > up
> > > > > and down a pre-scribed
> > > > > track and the only thing that can vary "independently" is speed!
> Brrrr.
> > > > > mike
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Colette Murphy  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > One that I like a lot:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > According to Vygotsky the teacher should be the track upon which
> the
> > > > train
> > > > > > coaches move freely and independently. The track only gives the
> > > coaches
> > > > the
> > > > > > direction of their own movement.
> > > > > > (Vygotsky, A Reawakened Star:
> > > > > > http://www.marxist.com/science-old/vygotsky_501.html)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Colette
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dr Colette Murphy
> > > > > > Senior Lecturer
> > > > > > School of Education
> > > > > > 69 University St
> > > > > > Queen's University
> > > > > > Belfast BT7 1HL
> > > > > >
> > > > > > tel: 02890975953
> > > > > > ________________________________________
> > > > > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu<
> http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >[
> > > xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu<
> http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu
> >]
> > > On
> > > > Behalf
> > > > > > Of Robert Lake [boblake@georgiasouthern.edu<
> http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>
> > > ]
> > > > > > Sent: 07 October 2010 21:15
> > > > > > To: Culture Activity eXtended Mind
> > > > > > Subject: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Everyone,
> > > > > > I am gathering the use of metaphors in Vygotsky's work for a
> > > > publication
> > > > > > and want to be sure to include as many as possible.
> > > > > > without any knowledge of Russian along with the fact that I have
> > > > > > only recently begun a serious investigation of his work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In her essay on Vygotsky on Thinking and Speaking in the
> Cambridge
> > > > > > companion to Vygotsky,(2007) Vera John-Steiner cites some of
> > > Vygotsky's
> > > > most
> > > > > > famous examples, i.e. inner speech as "speech turning inward";
> > > thought
> > > > as a
> > > > > > "cloud shedding a shower of words"; "consciousness is reflected
> in a
> > > > word in
> > > > > > a word as the sun in a drop of water". (p.151).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes I know "tool" is a controversial example to some people :-).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Can you folks think of any others ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank-you in advance for any help with this.
> > > > > > Robert Lake
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Robert Lake  Ed.D.
> > > > > > Assistant Professor
> > > > > > Social Foundations of Education
> > > > > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
> > > > > > Georgia Southern University
> > > > > > P. O. Box 8144
> > > > > > Phone: (912) 478-5125
> > > > > > Fax: (912) 478-5382
> > > > > > Statesboro, GA  30460
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education
> is
> > > its
> > > > > > midwife.
> > > > > > -John Dewey.
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
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