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RE: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor
See, Mike and David,
"Zone" (in the term "zona bizhaishego razvitiia") is a kind of metaphor, as well, a "spatial metaphor" for a important dynamic aspect of the development of higher mental functions. But if we can assume that "development" can not be only a "spatial" reality, we must conclude that "zone" is some kind of metaphor, among other... However, the entire term "ZPD" could socially gain some kind of "conceptual" status, spite it initially could be a kind of metaphor-based generalization ---> I don't know this if is about Robert's concerning... In my point of view, something interesting for think about, in scientific generalizations, are also the "metonymies" - mostly when we take a part by the whole... "Consciousness is the object of psychology" [When it could be "is the main object", not exactly "the only one object"]; or "personality is drama" [when it could be "personality is also [like a] drama, not exactly "only a drama"]; etc... Sometimes, a "metonymic process" can tuns a kind of "hyperbole" for this reason, what can turns something "dangerous"...
:-)
Achilles.
> Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 06:31:12 -0700
> Subject: Re: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor
> From: lchcmike@gmail.com
> To: vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> CC: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
>
> Glad it resonates for you, David. I was not disagreeing. I was simply
> stating, I guess simple mindedly stating, that I did not understand what
> Robert meant by 1) the dialectical relationship between personal metaphor
> creation and the processes involved in the "assimilation of terminology" and
> 2) how whatever #1 means, this provides an example of Vygotsky's quest for
> synthesis between the disparate views of early 20th century psychology?
>
> I think I know what is meant by #2. But what is a personal metaphor (one a
> person just made up, de novo?) and what is mean by "the processes involved
> in "the assimilation of terminology."?
>
> If my confusion is a personal failure (quite likely!) drop the matter and I
> will hope for enlightenment as the conversation continues. The comments just
> go by too quickly for me. Now i am stuck on sense-eggs in the meaning-nest
> of other psychologists!
>
> Slow in so cal.
> mike
>
> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 1:25 AM, David Kellogg <vaughndogblack@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
> > Mike--
> >
> > I know, I'm speaking out of turn. But let me say more. I know exactly what
> > he's getting at, and I completely agree.
> >
> > Vygotsky is a thieving magpie, a larcenous cuckoo with meanings. I mean (by
> > that ungainly metaphor) that he tends to lay his sense-eggs in the
> > meaning-nests of other psychologists.
> >
> > Just think of:
> >
> > a) "aesthetic reaction" (Vygotsky laying the egg of "answerability" in
> > Kornilov's reactological nest)
> >
> > b) "syncretic heap" (Vygotsky laying the egg of his scheme of concept
> > formation based on Hegel's logic in the nest of Piagetian "syncretism".)
> >
> > c) "egocentric speech" (verbal thinking laid in Piaget's nest)
> >
> > d) "pseudoconcept" (the concept-for-others left in the nest of Stern's
> > personalism)
> >
> > e) "structure" (the distinction between higher and lower psychological
> > functions left in the next of the Gestaltists, who recognize no such
> > distinction)
> >
> > All of these are words stolen from the lips of others, often others in
> > schools to which Vygotsky is violently hostile. Think of Vygotsky's
> > denunciation of Stern--in Moscow, right to his face!--using phrases from
> > Moliere's "Medecin malgre lui", think of all of those long "prefaces"--to
> > Thorndike, to Lazursky, to Piaget himself--that have the effect of
> > converting the following book to a historical document or a negative example
> > of how to proceed.
> >
> > The eggs lovingly laid by opponent schools are slyly tipped out for the
> > snakes and rats to devour, and a completely new content is laid down
> > instead. The problem is that a synthesis, for Vygotsky, does NOT mean
> > splitting the difference, or "sewing a cows lips to a horse's head" (as we
> > say in China). It means going in another direction entirely, hence the
> > spiral.
> >
> > David Kellogg
> > Seoul National University of Education
> >
> > --- On *Thu, 10/7/10, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>* wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> >
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor
> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 7:20 PM
> >
> >
> > You need to say more for me, Robert. How would that work?
> >
> > Spirals. Now there is an interesting geometric shape to consider. How did
> > Bruner deploy it?
> >
> > mike
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Robert Lake <boblake@georgiasouthern.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > David,
> > > Could the dialectical relationship between personal metaphor creation and
> > > the processes involved in the "assimilation of terminology" provide an
> > > example of Vygotsky's quest for synthesis between the disparate views of
> > > early 20th century psychology? Or perhaps to use Bruner's metaphor of
> > the
> > > spiral staircase........need I say more?
> > > RL
> > >
> > > Robert Lake Ed.D.
> > > Assistant Professor
> > > Social Foundations of Education
> > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
> > > Georgia Southern University
> > > P. O. Box 8144
> > > Phone: (912) 478-5125
> > > Fax: (912) 478-5382
> > > Statesboro, GA 30460
> > >
> > > "Democracy must be born anew in every generation and education is its
> > > midwife".
> > > -John Dewey
> > >
> > > >>> David Kellogg 10/07/10 8:07 PM >>>
> > > Vygotsky's metaphors are many and varied: peas in a sack (child
> > concepts),
> > > guerrilla warfare vs. prolonged seige (theoretical vs. empirical
> > research),
> > > and my all-time favorite, "science concepts do not drop into the child's
> > > mouth like a flock of already roasted-pigeons".
> > >
> > > But it seems to me that any discussion of his use of analogy should
> > include
> > > his discussion of the LIMITS of metaphor. This is in the context of his
> > > analogy between the learning of scientific concepts and the learing of
> > > foreign language words, which can be found, in the Minick translation, in
> > > Volume One, p. 223, of the Collected Works. Here's OUR translation:
> > >
> > > "In substance, our analogy always treats the development of two aspects
> > of
> > > a single and same process by their psychological nature: verbal thinking.
> > In
> > > the one case, that of the foreign language, what comes into the forefront
> > is
> > > the external, sonorous, phasal* properties of verbal thinking; in the
> > other,
> > > the development of scientific concepts, it is the semantic process of the
> > > same process. For this reason the assimilation of a foreign language
> > > doubtless requires, even though in a minimal measure, the mastery of the
> > > semantic aspect of the foreign language, just as the development of
> > > scientific concept requires, even to a minimal extent, some effort to
> > master
> > > scientific language, the symbols of science, which intervene in an
> > evident
> > > fashion during the assimilation of terminology and symbolic systems, such
> > as
> > > that of arithmetic. For this reason, one might expect from the very
> > > beginning that we might find the analogy that we are developing here. Yet
> > we
> > > know
> > > that the development of the phasal and semantic aspects of language do
> > not
> > > repeat themselves but follow specific ways, and so we must expect that
> > our
> > > analogy will prove to be incomplete like any other analogy and that the
> > > assimilation of a foreign language with respect to the maternal tongue
> > shall
> > > present resemblances to the development of scientific concepts with
> > respect
> > > to that of everyday concepts in some determined relations, while in
> > others
> > > there will be profound differences."
> > >
> > > And it seems to me that there's a very SIMPLE explanation for the failure
> > > of the analogy, too. Every foreign language represents, in the final
> > > analysis, somebody ELSE'S everyday concepts.
> > >
> > > David Kellogg
> > > Seoul National University of Education
> > >
> > > --- On Thu, 10/7/10, Achilles Delari Junior wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Achilles Delari Junior
> > > Subject: RE: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor
> > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 4:37 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well...
> > >
> > > I also remember that in 1929 Vygotsky compared old psychological views
> > with
> > > the "Comedia del'Arte", because the fixed roles of the psychic functions
> > > compared to the fixed roles of the characters in that kind of drama...
> > This
> > > is at the paper "Concrete human psychology" in English it was published
> > at
> > > Soviet Psychology, 1989, v. 17, n. 2 - but I don't have my copy of the
> > > English version here anymore.... only a Portuguese version. In the same
> > text
> > > is present also the metaphor about consciousness as telephonist in
> > contrast
> > > and complementation to Pavlovian metaphor about brain as telephonic
> > central,
> > > if I remember well... This same subject was repeatead at the book "The
> > > history of development of higher mental functions" from 1931 (In Spanish
> > > edition of the Works, as in Russian, it is the Volume III)... A metaphor
> > > with trains and rails was used as well, in reflexological discussion, for
> > a
> > > comparison with Sherrignton's contributions about much more afferent ways
> > > (rails) than efferent ones... but by memory I don't know more if this is
> > > at that reflexological text from 1924 or from 1925... (Consciousness as
> > > problem of behavior psychology). In the Psychology of Art, certainly he
> > also
> > > repeat the Sherington formulation, but I am not so sure about where was
> > the
> > > "train metaphor"... If you have interest in this "train" metaphor, I can
> > > localize the actual sources, for this too...
> > >
> > > Best.
> > >
> > > Achilles.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2010 15:05:08 -0700
> > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor
> > > > From: lchcmike@gmail.com<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > > > To: xmca@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > >
> > > > Woa, not so sure about the train track metaphor. The train moves freely
> > > up
> > > > and down a pre-scribed
> > > > track and the only thing that can vary "independently" is speed! Brrrr.
> > > > mike
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Colette Murphy wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > One that I like a lot:
> > > > >
> > > > > According to Vygotsky the teacher should be the track upon which the
> > > train
> > > > > coaches move freely and independently. The track only gives the
> > coaches
> > > the
> > > > > direction of their own movement.
> > > > > (Vygotsky, A Reawakened Star:
> > > > > http://www.marxist.com/science-old/vygotsky_501.html)
> > > > >
> > > > > Best
> > > > >
> > > > > Colette
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr Colette Murphy
> > > > > Senior Lecturer
> > > > > School of Education
> > > > > 69 University St
> > > > > Queen's University
> > > > > Belfast BT7 1HL
> > > > >
> > > > > tel: 02890975953
> > > > > ________________________________________
> > > > > From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>[
> > xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu>]
> > On
> > > Behalf
> > > > > Of Robert Lake [boblake@georgiasouthern.edu<http://us.mc1103.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=boblake@georgiasouthern.edu>
> > ]
> > > > > Sent: 07 October 2010 21:15
> > > > > To: Culture Activity eXtended Mind
> > > > > Subject: [xmca] LSV's use of metaphor
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Everyone,
> > > > > I am gathering the use of metaphors in Vygotsky's work for a
> > > publication
> > > > > and want to be sure to include as many as possible.
> > > > > without any knowledge of Russian along with the fact that I have
> > > > > only recently begun a serious investigation of his work.
> > > > >
> > > > > In her essay on Vygotsky on Thinking and Speaking in the Cambridge
> > > > > companion to Vygotsky,(2007) Vera John-Steiner cites some of
> > Vygotsky's
> > > most
> > > > > famous examples, i.e. inner speech as "speech turning inward";
> > thought
> > > as a
> > > > > "cloud shedding a shower of words"; "consciousness is reflected in a
> > > word in
> > > > > a word as the sun in a drop of water". (p.151).
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes I know "tool" is a controversial example to some people :-).
> > > > >
> > > > > Can you folks think of any others ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank-you in advance for any help with this.
> > > > > Robert Lake
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Robert Lake Ed.D.
> > > > > Assistant Professor
> > > > > Social Foundations of Education
> > > > > Dept. of Curriculum, Foundations, and Reading
> > > > > Georgia Southern University
> > > > > P. O. Box 8144
> > > > > Phone: (912) 478-5125
> > > > > Fax: (912) 478-5382
> > > > > Statesboro, GA 30460
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Democracy must be born anew in every generation, and education is
> > its
> > > > > midwife.
> > > > > -John Dewey.
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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