Hi, I'm not sure about this, but reading a biography of Mead I think he actually never got his Ph.D. in Europe (I'm not sure if he got one when he came back to the U.S). But from what I remember he was never able to get into the lab he wanted. I believe he took some courses with Dilthey, but they were rather large lectures. But I think when James suggested Mead go over the Europe (Mead never studied with James but knew him through his children) it was to study in a lab closer akin to Wundt's empiricism. That said, they probably shared a number of social interlocutors including Dilthey, James, Dewey, others Mead ran into in Europe. It seems like ideas were much more wide open in those days - and everybody was influencing everybody. Michael ________________________________ From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole Sent: Sat 7/31/2010 10:43 AM To: Larry Purss Cc: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity Subject: Re: [xmca] Question Larry-- In an indirect sense, LSV and Mead have been in dialogue for a long time through a common interlouctor. Mead got his PhD with Dilthey who was an important "other" in LSV"s intellectual firmament. Certainly worth pursuing more deeply. mike On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 5:58 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Elina > I support Mike's recommendation that you look at articles by Alex Gillespie > and Jack Martin on neo-Meadian approaches to reflexivity and > self-consciousness. The CENTRAL concept in their theoretical approach is > reflexivity or "perspective taking" which in Meadian approaches is much more > inclusive than "cognition or thinking". Reflexivity is a concept which > elaborates "ORIENTATION to life worlds" and EMERGES [is not essential or > innate] within social ACTS [with OTHER persons]. As Mike points out Mead's > approach has many similarities with cultural-historical theory. > You can find many articles by Gillespie at his website at Stirling > University where he has a long list of articles posted. > > By engaging with Martin's and Gillespie's writings you will be introduced > to alternative models of reflexivity and self-consciousness as they > articulate how they believe their theoretical approach adds something new > to modelsof the emergence of reflexivity within layers [NOT STAGES] of > historical development. > Your topic is also a central and guiding question for how I orient to the > world. I LOVE to attempt to juxtapose Vygotsky and Mead as two approaches, > which in CONVERSATION have the capacity to FORM new PERSPECTIVES on the > centrality of reflexivity to the emergence of self-consciousness whithin > social ACTS. > > Larry > > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 7:42 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Nice to have company in a state of questioning, Elina. >> (It was not me who linked "reflexia" to metacognition, it was grad >> students >> at MGU!) :-) >> >> About function. >> Here I would not look to Vygotsky, but to Anokhin and Luria. But then >> Luria >> learned a lot from Vygotsky, so who knows. Still, they discuss functions >> and functional systems and the idea comes alive in their examples and >> their >> work. Perhaps wrongly. i am not sure. Did you and >> Seth get into their work? >> >> I think it might be useful here to consider the work of Martin and >> Gillespie >> that Larry pointed at, and in general, "neo-Median" ideas, for the >> development of samo-so-znanie (self-conjointly with-knowledge). Znanie is >> a >> noun, so maybe reflexivity could be connected with the process, not the >> product? Not at all sure. And what would it mean for them to be completely >> separated? (Or to be able to specify the specifics of their >> inter-connectedness!!) >> mike >> mike >> >> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Elina Lampert-Shepel >> >> <ellampert@gmail.com>wrote: >> >> > Mike - >> > I can relate to a LOT of trouble. Both notions are used in many >> different >> > ways in the contexts of development and learning. A few weeks ago, >> during >> > Vygotsky Summer School, Gennadiy Kravtsov and I had a long conversation >> > about my cross-cultural research on reflection or as you say "reflexia". >> He >> > talked about reflection/reflexivity in the context of >> "self-consciousness" >> > and we discussed reflexivity as a condition for the development of >> > self-consciousness. He believes that the notion of "self-consciousness" >> ( >> > that I distinguish from reflexivity) was never developed fully in >> > cultural-historical tradition. Knowing that there is still lack of >> bridge >> > between Russian and the rest of the world cultural-historical research, >> I >> > wanted to learn whether there are studies that connect reflection ( >> > "reflexia") and self-consciousness. It is interesting that you mentioned >> > both "reflexia" and "self-consciousness' in the context of >> meta-cognition. >> > It seems to me that learning activity theory conceptualized reflection >> as a >> > metacognitive process, although Vygotsky never discussed it as a >> cognitive, >> > or metacognitive process. There is also an important language >> difference, >> > Russian language doesn't have an everyday use of the word reflection, it >> > only exists as a philosophical or psychological notion. >> > >> > Part of this conversation was discussion of the nature of higher >> > psychological functions. I am still puzzled with what Vygotsky meant by >> > function ( Seth Chaiklin and I posed this question in 2002 and as we >> > discussed recently and are still looking for an answer...:-), but >> Gennadi >> > and I believe that reflection and will are not higher psychological >> > functions. We are in the process of developing a proposal for the ISCAR >> > symposium on these issues. >> > >> > In any case, I was just wondering if there are studies on the >> development >> > of self-consciousness and/or reflexivity that are not necessarily rooted >> in >> > Russian philosophical thought. >> > >> > As you can see, I am in the state of questioning, so directions for >> further >> > questioning will be highly appreciated. >> > >> > Elina >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 7:49 PM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> >> Elina-- >> >> >> >> I spent a great many sessions with Russian grad students who were >> >> interested >> >> in this issue. We had a LOT of trouble with the fact that there seem to >> be >> >> a >> >> whole lot of words that appear to refer in overlapping ways with >> >> "self-consciousness." Terms in the family of reflectivity, reflexivity >> >> came >> >> up a lot among the Russian students, but they were trying hard to >> figure >> >> out >> >> what the right English words were for whatever Russian term was being >> >> used. >> >> Not just "samo-soznanie" was used in their conversations as well, with >> >> meta-cognition slipping in along with "reflexia." >> >> >> >> I am unsure what to suggest. What is occasion for the question? >> >> mike >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > Elina >> >> > >> >> > I wanted to express my appreciation of the quote you sign off with by >> >> > Tagore. It captures the central imperative of foregrounding >> context >> >> and >> >> > traditions in the emergence of self-consciousness [the string] BUT >> that >> >> > without the string there is no violin. >> >> > I find myself often reflecting on the implications this perspective >> >> > elaborates. >> >> > >> >> > One suggestion I would like to suggest on the emergence of >> >> > self-consciousness is Andy's vimeo podcast on the Historical roots of >> >> > cultural-historical theory. [Hegel is central] >> >> > >> >> > Larry >> >> > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 6:23 AM, Elina Lampert-Shepel >> >> > <ellampert@gmail.com>wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > Hi, everyone, >> >> > > I would appreciate if anyone can recommend publications on >> >> > > self-consciousness in cultural-historical tradition. I am >> interested >> >> in >> >> > any >> >> > > references on this issue. >> >> > > Thanks in advance, >> >> > > Elina >> >> > > >> >> > > -- >> >> > > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of >> it >> >> and >> >> > > it >> >> > > responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin string >> is >> >> > > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my >> violin >> >> and >> >> > > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin >> >> string. >> >> > > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore >> >> > > _______________________________________________ >> >> > > xmca mailing list >> >> > > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> >> > > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> >> > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > xmca mailing list >> >> > xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> >> > http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> xmca mailing list >> >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > I have on my table a violin string. It is free. I twist one end of it >> and >> > it responds. It is free. But it's not free to do what a violin string is >> > supposed to do - to produce music. So I take it, fix it in my violin and >> > tighten it until it is taut. Only then is it free to be a violin string. >> > -Sir Rabindranath Tagore >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> xmca mailing list >> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu >> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca >> > > _______________________________________________ xmca mailing list xmca@weber.ucsd.edu http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
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