Re: [xmca] Fwd: Private Speech and Self Regulatiion

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

I think all of this is closely related to what Tolman wrote about the
division of (specifically human) labor giving rise to conscious action,
consciousness, which appears as a special kind of co-knowledge,
Steve.

Luria theorized mediation in a really interesting way, combining
phylogenetic and cultural lines of development in one of the only ways left
open to him after about 1934. He was not, i believe, focused on the level of
local activities or how these activities are linked to their large
socio-cultural context, except in ritual speech.

We can't do it all! We can't get it all right.
I think he understood this perfectly.
mike

On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 8:00 PM, Steve Gabosch <stevegabosch@me.com> wrote:

> I picked up my copy of Luria's The Working Brain (1973) and discovered I'd
> already underlined some of the answers to my question!  What is new is I
> have been recently acquiring a much clearer idea of Vygotsky's concept of
> the double stimulated neural connection - one stimuli emanating from an
> object, the other from a sign - and now have that concept to work with.  I
> can read and remember with much more clarity when I have a compelling set of
> questions to ask and comparisons to make, and Vygotsky's theory of the
> higher mental functions gives me some really good ones.
>
> Luria built his work on this very concept, explaining it very nicely on
> page 245-247 in a discussion of voluntary movement.  He describes the
> mechanistic approaches to this in the past and says "A radical change was
> necessary to the basic idea of voluntary movement and action, in order to
> preserve the distinctive feature of  these higher conscious forms of
> activity, but at the same time to make them accessible to truly scientific,
> deterministic analysis.  The first step in this direction was taken by
> Vygotsky (1956; 1960), who introduced into psychology the concept that the
> source of voluntary movement and action lies, not within the organism, not
> in the direct influence of past experience, but in man's social history ..."
> p246
>
> Luria then, as he can do so well, offers a succinct description of
> Vygotsky's concept of the social origins of the higher functions, and closes
> with "the function previously shared between two persons became a method of
> organization of the higher forms of active behavior which are social in
> origin ..." p247
>
> Earlier he had explained another aspect.  "The higher forms of mental
> processes have a particularly complex structure; they are laid down during
> ontogeny.  Initially they consist of a complete, expanded series of
> manipulative movement which gradually have become condensed and have
> acquired the character of inner 'mental actions' (Vygotsky, 1956; 1960;
> Galperin, 1959)." p30  And then, referring to external signs such as written
> words, "it becomes perfectly clear that these external aids or historically
> formed devices are essential elements in the establishment of functional
> connections between individual parts of the brain, and that by their aid,
> areas of the brain which previously were independent become the components
> of a single functional system. This can be expressed more vividly by saying
> that historically formed measures for the organization of human behavior tie
> new knots in the activity of man's brain ..." p31.
>
> And here, Luria, the eminent cultural-historical psychologist, shows how
> the higher mental functions are formed not as a separate organ, but in
> activity itself.  And that is the key.
>
> What I like about Vygotsky's two-stimuli model is it gives me a picture of
> 1) a biological process (a neural connection) and 2) the sensing of an
> object being transformed by 3) a cultural-historical and social process,
> creating 4) something new, a unique human action.  Or, more likely, a series
> of such 1-2-3 connections swarming together competing to get out a narrow
> door (one of Vygotsky's metaphors), reflecting a struggle of possibilities
> within the person that exist without.  And then will plays its role, making
> choices among these possibilities - or deciding to "flip a coin" when it is
> a "toss up."  Or something like that.  I am looking forward to learning more
> from Luria, and am very happy to see how much he continued to work with
> Vygotsky's ideas in his work in neuropsychology.
>
> And of course, there are numerous other themes that Vygotsky and Luria
> touched on in the late '20's and early '30's that this book elaborates -
> localization, functional systems, etc.  I can now see the continuity.  What
> other books and articles exist that can help a person study this material?
>  And who are some other researchers that worked on these aspects people
> recommend?
>
> - Steve
>
>
>
> On Jul 30, 2010, at 1:53 PM, Steve Gabosch wrote:
>
>  So - what were Luria's views on Vygotsky's concept of the
>> double-stimulated or mediated neural connection - a stimulus-object and
>> stimulus-sign forming a single connection unique to humans, a restructuring
>> of the usual direct S-R connection?  Did Luria pursue that concept?  Who
>> has?  This strikes me as a possible bridge between neuropsychology and
>> cultural, developmental, and cross-cultural psychology.  Vol 4 is giving me
>> a whole new set of questions to ask.  Will relisten to the DVD ...
>>
>> - Steve
>>
>>
>> On Jul 29, 2010, at 4:37 PM, mike cole wrote:
>>
>>  Should be really interesting read, ulvi.
>>> My own view is that Luria's legacy is far broader than encompassed in
>>> neuropsychology, but his work in neuropsychology is generally not of
>>> interest in communities that take a great interest in his developmental
>>> and
>>> cross-cultural work.
>>>
>>> mike
>>> ( The DVD that goes along with the newer edition of ARL's autobiography
>>> has
>>> a discussion between Bruner and Saxe about him
>>> that a least makes the connection between his work as a neuropsychologist
>>> and his research in Central Asia possible to glean)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 12:24 AM, ulvi icil <ulvi.icil@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Luria's legacy....
>>>>
>>>> http://www.borders.com/online/store/TitleDetail?sku=0195176707
>>>>
>>>> http://www.elkhonongoldberg.com/books/
>>>>
>>>> I was planning to read The New Executive Brain.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2010/7/29, Monica Hansen <monica.hansen@vandals.uidaho.edu>:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What was it you were reading by Goldberg? Can you make a recommendation
>>>>>
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>>> a
>>>>> particular article? I was just reading The New Executive Brain. This
>>>>> book
>>>>> Larry suggests looks interesting, too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Monica
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu [mailto:xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu]
>>>>>
>>>> On
>>>>
>>>>> Behalf Of ulvi icil
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 11:29 AM
>>>>> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] Fwd: Private Speech and Self Regulatiion
>>>>>
>>>>> Incredible coincidence ! at a moment I was just reading Goldberg on
>>>>> Luria
>>>>> just after I was proposed on the relationship of Vygotsky and Luria
>>>>> with
>>>>> executive functions by my last semestr educational neurology professor
>>>>>
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>> after having communicated with Bella yesterday.
>>>>> Any additional comment and advice,  highly appreciated and warmly
>>>>>
>>>> welcome!
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks in advance
>>>>> Ulvi
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2010/7/28, Larry Purss <lpscholar2@gmail.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>> I thought this book review from TCRECORD may be of interest. On the
>>>>>>
>>>>> topic
>>>>
>>>>> of
>>>>>> private speech and executive functioning
>>>>>> Larry
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>> From: <no-reply@tcrecord.org>
>>>>>> Date: Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 11:20 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Private Speech and Self Regulatiion
>>>>>> To: lpscholar2@gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Larry Purss (lpurss@vsb.bc.ca) has sent you this article from
>>>>>> TCRecord
>>>>>>
>>>>> (
>>>>
>>>>> http://www.tcrecord.org)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Private Speech, Executive Functioning, and the Development of Verbal
>>>>>> Self-Regulation
>>>>>>
>>>>>> by Debra Myhill
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the full article, visit
>>>>>> http://www.tcrecord.org/Content.asp?ContentId=16067
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