Re: [xmca] Experiments, assymetries, and strange situations

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Never could spell, Michael. Sorry. It was Park. You can find his essay if
you google James "Progress is a terrible thing" Park.

I sort of thought it was interesting that Malinowski said so in the preface
to Kenyatta's book.... and he was not engaged in Chicago pragmatists'
debate, but had been a witness to British imperialism direct, among others,
at the Gikuyu.
mike

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 7:24 AM, Michael Glassman <MGlassman@ehe.osu.edu>wrote:

> Mike,
>
> Is it Robert Parke or Robert Park who wrote this down and then reported it
> later.  If it is Robert Park then this is pretty interesting (well it's
> interesting anyway).  But Park went to the University of Chicago and built
> up the Sociology Department started by Mead along with his colleagues
> Burgess and Farris (and was by the way the favorite professor of Saul
> Alinsky - at least according to one article).
>
> The reason why I think it is interesting, and would be even more
> interesting dependent on when Park actually reported this, is because from
> what I have read there was a split in the Pragmatism movement between James
> and Peirce on one side and Dewey and Mead on the other about whether there
> is any such thing as progress.  I am thinking if James said "Progress is
> terrible" he was not saying progress itself caused terrible things to
> happen, but that the concept of progress was illusory and the belief that it
> actually occurs on any level is terrible.
>
> What's interesting about Park reporting this is that from his work at the
> Sociology department he seems to have definitely believed in the type of
> progress that Dewey and Mead thought was important, that through democratic
> processes you could make life better over time (the progress I think is in
> the process).  Park was I think the first urban sociologist and he seemed to
> see great promise in the progress of cities to become better places to live.
>
> If anyone is interested here is an interesting article that describes that
> whole period
>
>
> http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_speculative_philosophy/v016/16.1engel.html
>
> Anyway, I'm wondering how Malinowski used the quote.
>
> Michael
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: xmca-bounces@weber.ucsd.edu on behalf of mike cole
> Sent: Wed 4/21/2010 9:34 PM
> To: eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity
> Subject: [xmca] Experiments, assymetries, and strange situations
>
>
>
> OK, I'll change the header, and someone can change it back if they wish. I
> was, so to speak, losing track of the thread.
>
> Luria said that LSV conducted "experiments" (his daughter reaching for the
> cookies) "pour voir." Seems a lot like empirical philosophy to me. What is
> the origin of that phrase, David K? And thanks for summarizing this long
> and
> interesting thread.
>
> About origin of phrases:
> re-reading "Facing Mount Kenya" I discover that the intro was written by
> Malinowski, Kenyatta's mentor in British higher education. The book is full
> of wonderful stuff, but a comment in the intro caught my attention.
> "Progress is a terrible thing" writes Malinowski, quoting Williams James
> (he
> writes). Tracking it down through google it turns out that James never
> wrote
> such a phrase. Robert Parke, HIS student wrote it down, quoting something
> he
> said that james said at a meeting on evolution and progress. All of this at
> a very uncomfortable time, not so distant or different from our own, when
> the world was in economic crisis, the dreams of many millions and their
> lives had been lost, and were being lost, in international wars.
>
> Bakhtin on reported speech? Sources of ideas like that we are all doing
> empirical philosophy? If we are not, what are such fugitive words as
> ontology skulking around here for?
>
> The good news is that it is raining in April in San Diego and that people
> on
> XMCA are writing down such interesting ideas. East of here the entire
> school
> of education at Arizona State was shuttered and word has it (:-))
> that many thousands of teachers will not be returning to their classrooms
> in the fall. Some free spirits showed us that all that seems solid melts
> into hot air.
> mike
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Larry Purss <lpurss@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> > Jay
> > I agree that I was responding to the taken for granted roles as they
> > currently are structured in public schools.  If that is the given
> > institutional structure then we can attempt to support more symmetrical
> > relational patterns within these institutions.
> >
> > Now the Golden Key Schools "pair teacher" structure is a promising
> attempt
> > to rethink the teacher-learner relationship.  The second teacher's
> position
> > as "nurturing" as a key attribute of teaching/learning is one idea of
> > recognizing that engagement is foundational to development and learning.
> > By separating  "teaching" into more differentiated relationships in pair
> > teching we start to look at the centrality of "nurturing" and
> "engagement"
> > [being moved by others] in the process of teaching/learning.
> >
> > Larry
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jay Lemke <jaylemke@umich.edu>
> > Date: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 3:51 pm
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] The strange situation
> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >
> > >
> > > From time to time I realize that I was not around when "the
> > > strange situation" thread got started ... what was it all about,
> > > and is it time we put a new subject line up?
> > >
> > > Anyway, I just wanted to remark in response the the recent
> > > discussion about more symmetrical interaction in the ZPD that it
> > > may not just be, as Larry suggests, that both interactants take
> > > both roles (teacher, student), but that both those roles are
> > > superseded by new modes of participation and new kinds of
> > > relationship to one another. Freire famously used the terms
> > > teacher-student and student-teacher to name the new roles in his
> > > literacy education project in Brazil (the one that got him
> > > chased out of his own country). He meant, I think, something
> > > more than a combination or alternation of the old roles, but
> > > you'd really need to read a couple chapters of Pedagogy of the
> > > Oppressed to form your own impression of what he did mean.
> > >
> > > In the US we often hear the phrase "more experienced peer" for
> > > the senior partner in the ZPD. What term did LSV actually use,
> > > in Russian, and what is it likely to have meant for him?
> > >
> > > Of course presumably he was thinking more in terms of
> > > development rather than education, but I wonder if there is any
> > > tradition in CHAT-based educational models of re-defining the roles?
> > >
> > > JAY.
> > >
> > >
> > > Jay Lemke
> > > Professor (Adjunct, 2009-2010)
> > > Educational Studies
> > > University of Michigan
> > > Ann Arbor, MI 48109
> > > www.umich.edu/~jaylemke <http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke> <
> http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke <http://www.umich.edu/~jaylemke<http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke>>
> >
> > >
> > > Visiting Scholar
> > > Laboratory for Comparative Human Cognition
> > > University of California -- San Diego
> > > La Jolla, CA
> > > USA 92093
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Apr 21, 2010, at 9:15 AM, Larry Purss wrote:
> > >
> > > > Philip and Jay
> > > > This notion of symmetry seems to pivot around the theme of
> > > engagement and the students taking BOTH the "teaching" and
> > > "learning" positions and also the teacher taking BOTH the
> > > "learning" and "teaching" positions and each person in the
> > > activity MUTUALLY engaging and "moving" the others in the shared
> > > narrative.>
> > > > Philip, in your last sentence you mention you didn't say
> > > anything to the group of 5. It wasn't that I decided not to say
> > > anything.  It's just that I brushed it aside.
> > > >  This sentence speaks to the novelity and uncertainty of
> > > mutually engaged communication where BOTH self and other are
> > > radically implicated in each others consciousness [some call
> > > this intersubjectivity]
> > > > The context structures what is PERCEIVED and "understood" but
> > > their is a basic unknowability in where the converstion will go
> > > next [it's conceptual construction]
> > > > however
> > > >
> > > > the quality of the "engagement" [when symmetrical] affords the
> > > opportunity for BOTH teacher and student to take turns "LEADING"
> > > the dialogue.  Philip, if you had decided to tell the group
> > > of 5 the conceptual construction would have changed BUT the
> > > MUTUAL engagement would have been deepened.
> > > >
> > > > Larry
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Jay Lemke <jaylemke@umich.edu>
> > > > Date: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:16 pm
> > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] The strange situation
> > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > >
> > > >> Philip and all,
> > > >>
> > > >> Yes, I think your example does illustrate a number of the
> > > points
> > > >> I was making, and I think that Michael Roth was also trying
> > > to
> > > >> make, about symmetry in the ZPD. Certainly as the teacher
> > > here,
> > > >> you are scaffolding for the students some canonical aspects
> > > of
> > > >> naming, spelling, etc., but you are buildiing on their
> > > interests
> > > >> and contributions, what is important to them and comes from
> > > >> them, and so is unpredictable for you. You are remaining open
> > > to
> > > >> them, even if, as you say, always imperfectly understanding
> > > >> exactly what they are on about in some moments. And we see
> > > here
> > > >> successful convergence on the short timescale of such an
> > > >> episode, but you allude to the fact that other convergences
> > > may
> > > >> take much much longer (weeks) to happen, if they do. And of
> > > >> course things/themes/learning paths branch off, and come back
> > > >> again in new guises (like the Diego Rivera book and murals).
> > > >>
> > > >> And maybe one day you will share your story of your own young
> > > >> cousin's death, when you feel right about it. There is an old
> > > >> wisdom about seizing the "teachable moment", and these
> > > >> especially stand out ... but in another sense they happen all
> > > >> the time if we let them (symmetry) and when we recognize that
> > > we
> > > >> help to make them happen (obuchenie as our joint
> > > construction),
> > > >> and professionally we come to understand that we help them
> > > >> happen more often by what we do when they do happen.
> > > >>
> > > >> I think this is one of the deepest mysteries of good
> > > teaching:
> > > >> how we overcome the seeming contradiction between passing on
> > > >> useful elements of past culture and yet letting everthing
> > > that
> > > >> happens in the classroom or the interaction with/among
> > > students
> > > >> emerge naturally and symmetrically. It seems like we have to
> > > >> choose: either transmissionary teaching or student-centered
> > > >> exploratory learning. But we don't. Real life is far too
> > > complex
> > > >> to be subject to such dichotomies. I think that LSV
> > > understood
> > > >> this very well, but our own difficulties in understanding it
> > > are
> > > >> part of what can make his ideas seem strange or even
> > > >> contradictory at times.
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks for the richness of these examples,
> > > >>
> > > >> JAY.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Jay Lemke
> > > >> Professor (Adjunct, 2009-2010)
> > > >> Educational Studies
> > > >> University of Michigan
> > > >> Ann Arbor, MI 48109
> > > >> www.umich.edu/~jaylemke <http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke> <
> http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke <http://www.umich.edu/~jaylemke<http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke>>
> >
> > > >>
> > > >> Visiting Scholar
> > > >> Laboratory for Comparative Human Cognition
> > > >> University of California -- San Diego
> > > >> La Jolla, CA
> > > >> USA 92093
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Apr 18, 2010, at 9:37 AM, White, Phillip wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Jay, you wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> But I can't help thinking that much as it is true that
> > > >> successful teaching always depends on the teacher being truly
> > > >> responsive to the student, that is, to the cues the student
> > > >> provides about what more they need to take the step the
> > > teacher
> > > >> is hoping to see them take, that this inherent symmetry of
> > > >> successful communication still does not overcome the fact
> > > that
> > > >> the teacher really seems to be leading the students down a
> > > pre-
> > > >> determined garden path that leads to a pre-determined end.
> > > It's
> > > >> looks like transmission still, asymmetrical in power and ends
> > > >> and means still. And it's NOT, I hope, what LSV had in mind.
> > > >> Thought I might be wrong about this last point.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  when i think about your comment here - as well as
> > > >> Bateson's recognition that "the map is not the territory" -
> > > and
> > > >> that for me a theory is at best a map, certainly _not_ the
> > > >> territory, i also take into consideration that, again,
> > > accoring
> > > >> to Bateson, that learning is stochastic.  Whatever LSV
> > > had
> > > >> in mind, for me, my understanding is always an approximation -
> > >
> > > >> though i attempt to get as close to it as i can.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>   as a teacher i cannot accurately predict
> > > >> what individual students will learn, nor can i accurately
> > > >> predict when they will learn particular understandings -
> > > further
> > > >> more, how each student will formulate her learning, verbalize
> > > >> it, etc., i can't even come close to anticipating.  much
> > > of
> > > >> my job is, i think, maintaining a recursive feedback loop in
> > > >> which i approximate my understandings of the student's
> > > >> understandings.  and out of this emerges common
> > > >> understandings, most of the time.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>    below is an example of a small group
> > > >> reading lesson with third graders who are also learning
> > > >> english  i believe that it fits with what you are
> > > >> expressing.  in the reading group we have been
> > > discussing
> > > >> Frida Kahlo's work when Jorge gets up from his seat and
> > > returns
> > > >> with a book we had read earlier.
> > > >>> _________________________
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I turn now to Jorge, who has gotten the book on Diego
> > > Rivera.
> > > >> He has turned to a photograph of a mosaic of a traditionally
> > > >> dressed Mexican couple dancing.
> > > >>> The woman's hair has been parted in the middle, and hangs
> > > down
> > > >> in two braids in which red ribbons have also been
> > > braided.
> > > >> She's wearing a white blouse with what looks like embroidered
> > > >> flowers at the top, and her hands are lifting up a bright red
> > > >> skirt with what also looks like embroidered flowers.  A
> > > >> fancy lace slip shows below the skirt.  She is dancing
> > > on
> > > >> the brim of a wide hat, like a sombrero, but with a flat
> > > >> crown.  Her partner is mostly cut off in the
> > > >> photograph.  We can see not even half of him.  He
> > > >> sports long sideburns and a thin moustache.  He has a
> > > red
> > > >> scarf tied around his head.  He's wearing a fancy vest
> > > and
> > > >> a red tie.  His gaze is on his partner, while her eyes
> > > are
> > > >> downcast towards the hat.  To my eyes they look as if
> > > they
> > > >> might be Gypsies or Mexican Indians.  I remember that I
> > > had
> > > >> been taught the Mexican hat dance as a fifth grader, and
> > > wonder
> > > >> if this is an example of that dance.  Jorge has a point
> > > to
> > > >> make, now that he has redirected us and gotten all of our
> > > attention.>>> 1. Jorge - And, um, I think that, too, sometimes
> > > murals can
> > > >> tell stories because, watch this one.
> > > >>> 2. T - I see you went and got the book on Diego.
> > > >>> 3, Jorge - Yeah. Right here. I imagine that they are
> > > dancing,
> > > >> and that guy threw his hat - and the girl's real, cause it
> > > has a
> > > >> girl's dress from Mexico, and they do them.
> > > >>> 4. T - And they do what like that?
> > > >>> 5. Jorge - Their dresses.
> > > >>> 6, T - Okay, so you've seen people like this dressed in Mexico?
> > > >>> 7. Jorge - And I think they, murals, tell a story.
> > > >>> 8. T - What kinds of times have you seen, when have you seen
> > > >> people dancing like this in Mexico?
> > > >>> 9. Dolores - Guadalajara.
> > > >>> Jorge wants us to understand that murals tell stories, and
> > > has
> > > >> gotten one of the cultural artifacts to illustrate his
> > > >> point.  He knows what this mural is telling because he
> > > has
> > > >> seen similar behavior in Mexico.  He knows that the hat
> > > >> didn't just appear on the floor, but rather that the "guy
> > > threw
> > > >> his hat."  He also recognizes the girl as "real" because
> > > he
> > > >> recognizes the dress from Mexico.
> > > >>> At the time he was talking I didn't notice, but when I
> > > >> transcribed the tape, I realized that he used the verb
> > > >> "imagine", which was earlier used by Miranda when she had
> > > >> announced that her sister had "imagination".  During the
> > > >> tape transcriptions I have noticed that the same word will
> > > >> appear in close groups, as if each one of us is practicing
> > > using
> > > >> the word.  I think that this might be something to
> > > return
> > > >> to in the action research that might begin to demonstrate how
> > > >> vocabulary is appropriated.  But for now, what is most
> > > >> fascinating to me, was his understanding that the girl is
> > > real
> > > >> because her dress is from Mexico, and that this activity is
> > > >> found in Mexico.  I ask questions to elicit additional
> > > >> information, and then asking about times and places when
> > > Jorge
> > > >> has seen dances like on the mural, Dolores interjects,
> > > >> "Guadalajara."  However, Jorge ignores Dolores'
> > > >> contribution, and instead initiates a narrative.
> > > >>> 1. Jorge - Like when they, um, go to, like in my grandpa's
> > > bed
> > > >> and someone takes that thing I told you that round thing and
> > > it
> > > >> has sticks like that.
> > > >>> 2. T - Tell me more. What does that round thing with sticks do?
> > > >>> 3. Jorge - It, it has flowers.
> > > >>> 4. T - You want to make a drawing up on the board?
> > > Okay.
> > > >> You guys, watch what he's doing to see if you can figure out
> > > >> what he's making a drawing of.
> > > >>> 5. Jorge - Flowers like this, I told you.
> > > >>> 6. T - Oh!
> > > >>> 7. Elizabeth - Oh, he showed us once.
> > > >>> 8. T - Oh, for when people die?
> > > >>> 9. Jorge - Yes.
> > > >>> 10. T - Okay, a wreath. It's a flower wreath. Uh huh(I write
> > > >> "flower wreath").
> > > >>> 11. Elizabeth - sometimes they can make heart-shapes.
> > > >>> 12. T - Heart-shapes.
> > > >>> 13. Elizabeth - And like, when, my cousin died and they
> > > make,
> > > >> they make one like this (draws on the board).  A heart
> > > like that.
> > > >>> 14. T - They made a heart like that. (I restate and confirm
> > > >> what I see.)
> > > >>> 15. Elizabeth - and they do that, and that, and it has
> > > flowers
> > > >> all around like that.
> > > >>> 16. T - How old was your cousin?
> > > >>> 17. Elizabeth - thirteen.  She wanted to get to fifteen.
> > > >>> 18. T - She wanted to get to fifteen. (I repeat her statement.)
> > > >>> 19. Elizabeth - Yeah.
> > > >>> 20. T - But she only made it to thirteen.
> > > >>> 21. Elizabeth - yeah.
> > > >>> As he tells this narrative, Jorge employs a teaching
> > > strategy
> > > >> that I often use.  When I'm not sure that the students
> > > are
> > > >> understanding a word or a phrase that we are using I will
> > > often
> > > >> draw a picture on the chalk board.  Similarly, when
> > > Jorge
> > > >> notices that we can't figure out "that round thing" with
> > > >> "sticks" and "flowers", he stands up, moves over to the
> > > board,
> > > >> and begins drawing.  It is then, at turn number 6 that I
> > > >> understand what it is he is drawing.  Elizabeth at turn
> > > >> number 7 informs us that we've been told about this
> > > >> before.  Which is true.  Jorge tells lots of
> > > stories
> > > >> about his grandfather and his death and the work they did
> > > >> together on the farm in Chihuahua.  At turn number 10, I
> > > >> label the picture, and then Elizabeth recalls other shapes
> > > for
> > > >> flower displays in funerals.  Elizabeth then steps up to
> > > >> the board and draws a heart-shaped floral display, and begins
> > > >> her own story about her cousin that has died.  This is a
> > > >> new story, and will be returned to for the next few
> > > weeks.
> > > >> The narratives ends poignantly for me when it is revealed
> > > that
> > > >> the cousin was only thirteen when she died, though she had
> > > >> wanted to live at least until she was fifteen.
> > > >>> As Elizabeth tells her story, I thought about my own cousin,
> > > >> Judy, who died when she was fourteen.  I remembered her
> > > >> three younger brothers at the funeral playing catch between
> > > the
> > > >> grave stones with an enormous yellow chrysanthemum.  I
> > > >> remembered what a cold foggy day it was.  I remembered
> > > how
> > > >> angry I was.  But I didn't say a word about this to the
> > > >> Group of Five.  It wasn't that I decided to not say
> > > >> anything.  I just brushed the story aside.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> _____________________________
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Phillip White, PhD
> > > >>> University of Colorado Denver
> > > >>> School of Education
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > >
> phillip.white@ucdenver.edu_______________________________________________>
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