Re: [xmca] A Good Class or a Good Show? CHAT and the long term

[mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>]

Hi Yuan---

As you can see, I am once again late in responding to messages. Sometimes it
is because at the time I first read them I cannot digest them and need to
think, sometimes it is because life is pressing too hard to be able to
manage even my
habitual level of typing/spelling ability, and myriad other excuses.

What IS your dissertation about? What theoretical framework are you using
while learning the discourse of XMCA?

to pick up on just two points you raised (others appear otherwise engaged).

1. The big interest in narrative for understanding development includes some
quite intriguing work on autobiographical narratives and cultural variation.
Apropos of the idea of "collectivist vs individualistic cultures" the
evidence appears to show, among other things, that people from collectivist
societies (China is one example used) report "earliest memories" at an older
age than people form individualistic societies (USA is the usual culprit at
this end of the spectrum). Explanations appear to lean toward the idea that
kids from individualistic societies, being ego-centric, appropriate early
experience to the self which is presumably easier than taking in o the
social "others."

Re LCHC activities. We are a very small enterprise that operates through
distributed efforts of many individuals. Your idea concerning youtube and
Tony's idea about using a wiki and lots of other great ideas are great
ideas. But they
need qualified people to implement, support and nurture them. We are fresh
out
of fresh hands, but always open to collective action with people who wish to
get involved. No reason either to make it LCHC-o-centric. Why not
ISCAR-o-centric or University of Deleware-o-centric or Vygotsky Free
University of the Future-o-centric?

The answer, it seems, is that no winds blow from those directions, rustling
the bytes in our byte buckets and encouraging us to take up ball room
dancing.

I wonder what others think?
mike
On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 2:43 PM, yuan lai <laiyuantaiwan@gmail.com> wrote:

> I’m here to learn the discourse, ways of speaking, acting, interacting,
> feeling, and valuing (to borrow Gee’s words). The dissertation I'm working
> on is not from cultural-historical perspectives; I have been reading about
> CHAT, but not in any systematic way. People have given me words to
> appropriate and ideas to think about as I participate at xmca. There was a
> student-teacher couple entering a ballroom dancing competition and the
> student had reportedly progressed quickly; I like the story and tried to
> imagine what the people and the teaching-learning might be like; Mike's
> example of zoped is the key that opened the beautiful box for me. I’m
> thinking that xmca is like ballroom dancing events. Thanks for the dance,
> Jay! Looking forward to more, and more people on the floor :-)
>
> I like the idea of autobiographical narrative as a way in to developmental
> and social processes over longer timescales. Even young children tell
> autobiographical narratives. I've told some stories about myself here and
> if
> I keep doing that, over time readers might figure out my own developmental
> and social processes! I also like the idea of novels as reflections of the
> inner and social worlds. Novelists are keen observers of these worlds; I
> recall reading a report on Carol Shields and was amazed at her ability to
> observe. Maybe the authors' revisiting what they have written, and readers'
> and viewers' interactions with creative works (they all tell stories about
> human life) and the artists' conversation on each other's works would be
> additional sources to study how our views of ourselves and our world change
> over time.
>
> I watched earlier a special program, “Decade Review”. News may be close to
> “living” data, some rich and detailed, some less so. As events occurs, they
> are reported, photographed, filmed. Their availability and openness
> (especially to reporters or their agencies I guess, although the internet
> is
> changing the landscape) is conducive to year-end reviews and decade
> reviews.
> The existence of “living” data stored in self-sustaining institutions may
> encourage studies on larger term timescales. To answer Mike's call for a
> proposal, I'm thinking about what self-sustaining institutions for studying
> ecosocial processes from the inside would look like. The “component to keep
> track of and feedback to the rest of the institution” would be distributed
> among the researchers affiliated with the institutions. I imagine the
> researchers share their data and have access to the data; they may conduct
> studies on different timescales (that are manageable within their lifetimes
> and with the available data) and share these meta-studies in the same
> locations. I guess what access to data, what forms the data take, and
> related issues would be main concerns to work on. The other day I was
> looking for a video onlanguage socialization, of a young child saying her
> prayer while her mom filmed it for dad, who was away. With my limited
> skills, I could not find it. I wish Youtube has a better system of
> cataloguing. There are publicly available moment-to-moment processes there.
> Maybe establish CHAT groups at Youtube to catalog what's available there?
> Would we see in the future Google Diaires (of historical figures)? Beyond
> publicly available data, where it comes to establish databanks, if we
> consider that our data do not really belong to us and that the gracious
> participation of our subjects is primarily motivated by what good research
> studies may bring to our societies, we may be more willing to let go of our
> data so that they do become OUR collective data? The kind of information
> (moment-to-moment processes to ecosocial processes) is of interest to CHAT
> researchers. It would be a researcher’s dream to have access to vast amount
> of raw (more likely, somewhat cooked) data, audio, visual, textual. I think
> of xmca as a self-sustaining forum. If xmca or sister forums become access
> points to the databanks, it may also change the ways people participate at
> the forums, talking about data-theories linkage as an example. If LCHC
> initiates efforts on such long term projects and takes on some
> responsibilities while supporting the self-sustaining principle (I don't
> know enough about how these would be distinguished), it may live longer?
> Lots of work and lots of money is required. Lots of naive thoughts on my
> part for sure. I TRIED to entertain in order for you, Mike to entertain the
> proposal :-)
>
> Yuan
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 1:55 PM, Jay Lemke <jaylemke@umich.edu> wrote:
>
> > Many good and interesting points, Yuan! which I say partly as praise, and
> > sincerely, and partly because I know from past communications that many
> > readers of xmca worry that I am going to criticize what they wrote or
> > disagree! :-)
> >
> > It's very true that in my middle-class American culture, explicit verbal
> > praise is considered a parental obligation. I have been re-watching a
> movie,
> > because I like it's atmosphere and the series it is part of and because
> they
> > keep showing it again and again on cable tv, which features an action
> hero
> > father and his college-age son. The mother keeps despairing because the
> > father never manages to offer this praise to the son, and the son is
> clearly
> > angry and feels the father does not really love, or respect him. When the
> > mother confronts the father about this, he says "Well, I'm his father.
> It's
> > implied!" The story is set in China, but the family are English (but I
> think
> > the script must be by an American).
> >
> > How do we study developmental and social processes over longer
> timescales?
> > The article Mike recently circulated about fiction as simulation also
> > mentions biographical narratives, which the authors deemed inferior to
> > literary ones in several (cognitive) respects, and which are also
> disparaged
> > by historians and many researchers because they usually don't agree all
> that
> > well with other factual evidence. But they show us how we retrospectively
> > tell our lives over long timescales, and they tend to follow cultural
> models
> > of how this ought to be done. Diaries give us a different variant on
> this,
> > and I envy historians who have the time to read several decades of diary
> > entries and personal letters. There is a wealth of useful data there for
> > studying something, even if it is not what historians usually study. Nor
> is
> > it what developmental psychologists study (are there lifespan
> developmental
> > studies that use such data, anyone???). Who does study the ways in which
> our
> > views of ourselves and our world change across the decades of life?
> > Novelists, maybe?
> >
> > Yes, it takes a village. For diversity of needed viewpoints and for
> > continuity over timescales longer than a single research career (unless
> it's
> > Mike's or Jerry Bruner's :-) to study longer term (eco-)social processes.
> > E.g. the kinds of change you refer to in how Chinese-Americans name their
> > children, in relation to attitudes toward "standing out" or inviting the
> > jealousy of the gods (or of the local elite). Or how the leftward
> leanings
> > of Christian tradition were built on by the left in Latin American, while
> at
> > the same time, the rightward leanings were built on by the right in the
> US.
> > Social historians do try to study such things, but really they can't do
> it
> > the way we know it ought to be done. They have to narrow their scope to a
> > manageable topic for the time one person can dedicate to a study. They
> can
> > bring only one set of disciplinary skills and only one perspective based
> in
> > their own social positioning. And they can look over longer timescales
> only
> > through "dead" and indirect data (records, archives) without being able
> to
> > add to this the "living" data of processes as they occur, records-to-be
> as
> > they are created, the feelings of people and the rich, ethnographic data
> of
> > which the historical record can be but a minimal selection.
> >
> > And if we had such institutions, designed to do such studies on
> timescales
> > of a century or more, then someone would have to study them, too! or more
> > likely they would have to have a component within them to keep track of
> and
> > feedback to the rest of the institution what was happening over the
> > timescale of their own histories as institutions.
> >
> > JAY.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jay Lemke
> > Professor (Adjunct, 2009-2010)
> > Educational Studies
> > University of Michigan
> > Ann Arbor, MI 48109
> > www.umich.edu/~jaylemke <http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke> <
> http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke>
> >
> > Visiting Scholar
> > Laboratory for Comparative Human Communication
> > University of California -- San Diego
> > La Jolla, CA
> > USA 92093
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 20, 2009, at 6:27 PM, yuan lai wrote:
> >
> >  David, I think it's not so much the merits or demerits of an article as
> >> the
> >> monthly discussion paper's role at xmca. I think of the discussion paper
> >> as
> >> a piece to hold our shared attention, accessible to all and for all
> >> interested to comment on, not about what could have been, as it, like
> all
> >> research work, has its constraints, but, like a museum display, to make
> >> visible our own different takes, yet another way to share (“I didn’t
> know
> >> you also…”), to reaffirm, to envision “what could be”, etc. But how one
> >> feels about something does matter (neutral feelings usually means less
> >> speaking and acting), especially when there are other means to be
> members
> >> of
> >> a community. On the other hand, the sponataneous tends to be irregular,
> >> although not a problem at xmca. (I seem to be switching positions back
> and
> >> forth)
> >>
> >> I have been thinking how less praise is linked to collectivistic
> cultures.
> >> I
> >> speak from personal experiences. I’m a Chinese and Chinese culture is
> >> characterized as collectivistic. When I first came over to North
> America,
> >> as
> >> an adult, I was struck by the amount of praise parents and teachers
> lavish
> >> on children, as well as how much parents and adults talk to babies and
> >> toddlers, among other things. Gradually, the unfamiliar becomes
> familiar.
> >> My
> >> own experience of growing up at home, back in Taiwan, is that my parents
> >> did
> >> not hug me and my siblings much at all (all my aunts and uncles did the
> >> same, but my grandfather always hugged and kissed his grandchildren; I
> >> still
> >> recall complaining to him about his beard). But children growing up in
> >> such
> >> homes know that their parents love them because there are many ways to
> >> show
> >> love. My mom loves me every time when she cooks the food I like; my dad
> >> shows his love for me when he asks me to dress warmly. Chinese may get
> or
> >> give less praise, but we know it IS praise when parents do not say
> >> anything
> >> upon reading a report card of straight A’s. That’s a high school student
> >> put
> >> it to me; she knew her parents were pleased. Good grades are expected
> and
> >> both children and parents know. Overt praise among Chinese people, based
> >> on
> >> my personal experience and immigrants in Canada that I have experienced
> at
> >> that time, is not necessary because of shared expectations. I guess it
> >> would
> >> be the same with behavior. Someone I know told a story, which happened
> >> many
> >> years ago when she first arrived in New York from China. The host family
> >> picked her up at the airport in the evening and asked her if she would
> >> like
> >> something to eat before going to bed. She thanked her host and declined.
> >> She
> >> was expecting a second offer and ready to accept that. But the second
> >> offer
> >> never was made. Of course, the host family did not know the Chinese code
> >> for
> >> being a host. That was some years ago when I talked to some other
> >> immigrant
> >> Chinese about parental expectations. I don’t know the newer generation
> and
> >> how much parenting practices has changed or not. I can’t judge fairly my
> >> own
> >> parenting practices.
> >>
> >> In the example of expectations understood between and among parties, I
> >> think
> >> it is not so much “less praise” as to how praise is expressed, via body
> >> language or because there is less perceived need (due to shared, tacit
> >> understanding). But I’m not sure if “less praise” means “more
> criticism”,
> >> which Gratier et al. seem to place on the same plane. Looking at
> personal
> >> experiences on the speculated mechanism of “less praise”, I would think
> >> that, if a parent frowns while reading a report card, it is an
> expression
> >> of
> >> criticism and there shouldn’t be different patterns of occurrences. But
> >> then
> >> again we are human and we probably let out our anger when shared
> >> expectations aren’t met than to withhold praise, at least openly, when
> >> good
> >> results come in. It appears that Gratier et al. refer to a different way
> >> of
> >> conceptualizing praise and criticism. They write, “one element in the
> >> ‘collectivistic’ worldview is a dispreference for praise, which makes
> one
> >> child stand out” (p. 297). This implies that praise or criticism is
> given
> >> in
> >> public or at least there is an audience or potential audience. There is
> a
> >> saying, a nail that sticks out gets pushed down (as opposed to “a
> squeaky
> >> wheel gets oiled”). I can’t sort out what this means to me at the
> moment.
> >> But my question is that, if praise makes one child stand out, wouldn’t
> >> criticism also do? If so, we should expect to see less criticism in
> >> collectivistic culture, but the authors expected it in the opposite
> >> direction. I’m thinking why people in collectivistic societies might be
> >> fearless of making their young stand out with criticism. The only thing
> I
> >> could think of now is a Chinese tradition to name one’s children humbly
> so
> >> as not to invoke anger from gods or something. But I think it is more a
> >> tradition of the past and applies to private names family members used
> for
> >> their youngsters. Most Chinese names I know are grand sounding! Like
> >> “Beautiful flowers” or “Righteous Way.” There are some exceptions; One
> >> neighbor of mine formally named her daughter “Dian Dian”, which means
> Dot
> >> Dot. But that may suggest more fondness than fear of standing out.
> >>
> >> For me, Jay's article, Across the Scales of Time: Artifacts, Activities,
> >> and
> >> Meanings in Ecosocial Systems, inspires “what could be”. The parts of
> the
> >> article on the adabatic and heterochrony principles are a bit difficult
> >> for
> >> me (at first at least), but the rest is a treat! I was thinking of how
> it
> >> would apply to young immigrant children in Gratier et al. and
> >> methodological
> >> considerations as I read it. I like very much Jay’s view on page 288:
> “we
> >> still tend to define our objects of study in such a way that a single
> >> researcher could in principle come to understand them. This appears to
> be
> >> a
> >> contradiction in the case of ecosocial systems. The longest timescale
> >> processes that characterize such systems are almost certainly longer
> than
> >> a
> >> human lifetime. We cannot study such a system from more than a few of
> the
> >> many viewpoints within it, and we honestly do not expect all these views
> >> to
> >> fit consistently together. We need at least a team to conduct such a
> >> study,
> >> one as diverse or nearly so as the system under study, and along the
> same
> >> dimensions of difference. And we need a self-sustaining institution that
> >> will last long enough to observe major historical change in the system.
> >> ‘It
> >> takes a village’ to study a village.”
> >>
> >> (correction of phrases, errors, and misinterpretation is welcome) How to
> >> study longer-term processes and patterns (longer than one lifetime) in
> >> shorter-term processes? The individualism-collectivism is a framework
> >> Gratier et al. use; topdown frameworks (perhaps having been developed
> from
> >> bottom up) can be useful but, as lived through individuals with
> different
> >> variations, they are evolving, albeit probably at snail pace in a vast
> >> land..
> >> Jay's envisioning of a self-sustaining institution, perhaps global in
> >> nature
> >> (a future plan for LCHC perhaps?), would help track longer- or
> >> shorter-term
> >> processes across different timescales. As carriers of longer-term
> >> processess, how would the Latino children in Gratier et al. interpret
> the
> >> teacher’s, say, verbal or nonverbal signs of praise and criticism,
> >> intended
> >> by the teacher or not? How would this interpretation relate to their own
> >> perceptions and practices around their parents’ praise or criticism? How
> >> do
> >> researchers invite children to reflect on what they have just
> experienced?
> >> What emergent processes and patterns in the classrooms where different
> >> worlds come into contact? As I think about these, I see that researchers
> >> in
> >> the future would write with less finality of their interpretation (even
> >> when
> >> interpretations of participants are incorporated) if they intend their
> >> work
> >> to continue living, so to speak. Perhaps let the data speak for
> themselves
> >> more. Perhaps more built-in design to allow the data to be compared with
> >> research of similar nature in databanks for future researchers to mine
> the
> >> data.
> >>
> >> Yuan
> >>
> >> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:25 PM, David Kellogg <
> vaughndogblack@yahoo.com
> >> >wrote:
> >>
> >>  Mike, I think that the answer (to the temporary lull in the discussion
> of
> >>> the Gratier et al article) is of course all of the below: final exams,
> >>> end
> >>> of quarter, and a certain amount of delicacy over an article that at
> >>> least
> >>> some of us see as deeply problematic (see Jay's comments, especially).
> >>>
> >>> I often think it's more useful to bring whatever discussion we are
> >>> currently having (e.g. bodies and artifacts, emotion and cognition)
> >>> around
> >>> to the article at hand rather than vice versa.
> >>>
> >>> Some of our most successful and fruitful discussions have (alas for
> me!)
> >>> also been some of our most general.
> >>>
> >>> This is partly thanks to the very articulate and ardent philosophers on
> >>> the
> >>> list, but it's also because general means inclusive, transdisciplinary,
> a
> >>> party to which every party's invited except the bouncer.
> >>>
> >>> Now it seems to me that the Gratier et al. article really does have a
> >>> bearing on both the "bodies and artefacts" thread and the "emotion and
> >>> cognition" one. As I already said, I think the "bodies and artefacts"
> >>> connection is INTONATION and STRESS: this is the way that gesture
> really
> >>> "goes underground" in language, and so I think that Gratier et al (and
> >>> also
> >>> Wolff-Michael Roth) are right to look at it in all its spectrographic
> >>> splendor. But the level of detail we get that way has to somehow be
> >>> harnessed to a more macrogenetic perspective to do much good.
> >>>
> >>> This time I have a comment on the "emotion and cognition" thread. In
> >>> Chapter Two of Thinking and Speech, Vygotsky spends a LOT of time
> quoting
> >>> Bleuler. I've just been reading Bleuler's book on autism in the
> library.
> >>> Vygotsky likes him because of his rejection of the over-extended
> content
> >>> of
> >>> the autistic function (actually, as we shall see, an over-extended
> >>> conception of the reality function)..
> >>>
> >>> We can see, even if Bleuler cannot, the beginnings of Hegelian triad
> >>> describing the emergence of higher EMOTIONAL functions. The first,
> >>> relatively unmediated response, to reality is an instance of the
> reality
> >>> function, but it is based on perception and sensation. Here the
> >>> James-Lange
> >>> formula that we feel sad because we perceive ourselves crying or we
> feel
> >>> frightened because we feel the sensations of our body running away from
> a
> >>> bear may be a useful metaphor (except for the obvious homunculus
> problem
> >>> it
> >>> raises), or at least a catchy inversion of the individual subjectivist
> >>> view
> >>> of the genesis of affect.
> >>>
> >>>  From this primal, biological response a second, more fully
> psychological
> >>>>
> >>> response is born. As Bleuler points out, it requires a relatively
> complex
> >>> response, because it involves the recollection of sensation, and even
> >>> turning away from the immediate sources of sensation. This is the
> >>> autistic
> >>> function proper, and it is not genetically primary. When this response
> >>> becomes linked to itself, rather than to objective events, we get
> >>> “irrealist” logic, the pleasure principle, the associative links of
> >>> dreams
> >>> which Vygotsky refuses to call “symbolic”.
> >>>
> >>> Finally, there is a third response, which is “realistic” in the sense
> >>> that
> >>> it is oriented towards an objective state of affairs existing between
> >>> people
> >>> rather than within them. Yet it is mediated, by recollection and
> >>> reflection,
> >>> and above all by language. Here is where we must look for higher
> >>> affective
> >>> functions, culturally mediated emotions, and conceptually based
> >>> aesthetics.
> >>>
> >>> This third response is also where we need to look to find the basis of
> a
> >>> Spinozan—a socialist—ethics; like the second response, it considers
> human
> >>> pleasure and the satisfaction of desire to be a positive good. But like
> >>> the
> >>> first response, it is objective, in the sense that it is not
> >>> individualistic
> >>> but socially shared through and through. Bleuler, a biologically
> oriented
> >>> psychologist, cannot get us this far. But Vygotsky can!
> >>>
> >>> When I read Gratier et al. I am impressed by how many of the
> descriptions
> >>> of the Bridging Cultures Classroom contain descriptions of positive
> >>> affect,
> >>> and how many of the non-Bridging Cultures Classroom are rather
> negative.
> >>>
> >>> But of course a good class cannot simply be a chain of what
> Wolff-Michael
> >>> calls emotionally positive valences; some such chains are going to be
> at
> >>> the
> >>> lowest level of physical response (e.g. the satisfaction of desire,
> such
> >>> as
> >>> when kids get treats in class) and a good many more are going to be at
> >>> the
> >>> level Bleuler is calling autistic; the chain of "one positive valence
> >>> after
> >>> another" that we often see as a substitute for plot in children's
> >>> literature
> >>> and a substitute for a script in kids' movies.
> >>>
> >>> So we need more than glowing descriptions in order to see what
> >>> experienced
> >>> teachers see at a glance: the difference between a good show and a good
> >>> class! One of my grads is working on this right now; the idea is to
> test
> >>> the
> >>> positive valence of particular topics in a conversation by counting the
> >>> number of times they get brought up voluntarily by one child and
> >>> continued
> >>> by others.
> >>>
> >>> We initially thought we would use this technique just to find out who
> the
> >>> kids wanted to talk about: did they want to talk about the characters
> in
> >>> the
> >>> textbook, or about their teacher an their classmates? Surprisingly,
> they
> >>> often chose the textbook characters, and they were particularly
> >>> interested
> >>> in...the TEACHER character. In their chat about real people, they also
> >>> prefer the teacher as a topic. Perhaps this is part of OUR culture,
> >>> though!
> >>>
> >>> While writing this, though, a problem occurred to me. The topics that
> get
> >>> the most "hits" and which run the longest in classroom conversations
> >>> really
> >>> represent two rather contradictory things: the ability to stimulate
> >>> interventions from the most voluble participants, and the ability to
> >>> generalize to the interests of the greatest possible number. On xmca,
> of
> >>> course, that means topics of a certain generality and abstractness. In
> >>> our
> >>> classroom data, though, that tends to mean the teacher.
> >>>
> >>> David Kellogg
> >>> Seoul National University of Education
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- On Sun, 12/13/09, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> >>> Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> >>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>> Date: Sunday, December 13, 2009, 8:38 AM
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> My apologies for posting the les treilles paper twice. it did not show
> on
> >>> my
> >>> screen. As "recompense" here is a review of a book that
> >>> promotes the idea of "bio-cultural co-constructivism" without mention
> of
> >>> Vygotsky anywhere. Perhaps, as a result, it leads some of its adherents
> >>> into
> >>> some (in my opinion) inappropriate reduction of culture to "the
> >>> environment," thereby opening up a very old, very stinky, can of worms.
> >>>
> >>> Question: Many people on XMCA voted to discuss the
> >>> "Tacit Communicative Style and Cultural Attunement in Classroom
> >>> Interaction"<
> >>> http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content%7Edb=all%7Econtent=a915635308
> >>>
> >>>> article,
> >>>>
> >>> but very few have followed David's lead in discussing it directly.
> >>> Is it because of final exam time on both a quarter and semester system
> in
> >>> the US? Or voting as a prelude to spectatorship? Where are those
> voters?
> >>>
> >>> mike
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 7:20 AM, mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  The book description came through, Larry. Attached is the most recent
> >>>> Fonagy article i could find that appeared general. His work looks very
> >>>> interesting, thanks. I have not read it yet, but that fact that
> Gergeley
> >>>>
> >>> is
> >>>
> >>>> a co-author indicates that issues of intentionality are involved and I
> >>>> am
> >>>> very curious to see if the effects you talk about are connected with
> >>>>
> >>> changes
> >>>
> >>>> at 9months. First guess, it would fit with Tomasello and Vygotsky, but
> >>>> if
> >>>>
> >>> it
> >>>
> >>>> fits with Trevarthan and primary intersubjectivity it will be a
> >>>> suprise..
> >>>> We'll see.
> >>>>
> >>>> A brief paper on this topic I wrote for an audience for whom the idea
> >>>>
> >>> that
> >>>
> >>>> culture mediates human activity was a novelty, and that there is a two
> >>>>
> >>> way
> >>>
> >>>> relation between "natural" and "cultural" is also attached.
> >>>>
> >>>> thanks a lot for the pointer.
> >>>> mike
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:10 PM, Larry Purss <lpurss@shaw.ca> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>  Vera
> >>>>> I sent an attachment through CHAT but I don't think it went through.
> >>>>> Fonagy and three other authors wrote the book "Affect regulation,
> >>>>> Mentalization, and the Development of the Self.
> >>>>> It is an extension of Bowlby's and Winnicott's approach (He works at
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> same Tavistock institute in London) and its interweaving with his
> >>>>> understanding of Hegel and intersubjectivity theory.
> >>>>> The summary of infant studies from a relational framework is
> >>>>> excellent..
> >>>>> Some of the "clinical" approaches in the second half of the book may
> be
> >>>>> critqued.
> >>>>> Also I wonder how feminist scholars may critique the focus on
> >>>>> "mothers"?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> However the detail (though sometimes overwhelming) is systematically
> >>>>> presented and builds a coherent perspective on the centrality of
> >>>>>
> >>>> relational
> >>>
> >>>> processes to the development of subjectivity.
> >>>>> Larry
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: Vera Steiner <vygotsky@unm.edu>
> >>>>> Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009 8:04 pm
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> >>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>  Hi Larry,
> >>>>>> I would be interested in a link to Fonagy's recent publications.
> >>>>>> I am
> >>>>>> related to him and am doubly curious about his work.
> >>>>>> Thanks, Vera
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: "Larry Purss" <lpurss@shaw.ca>
> >>>>>> To: <ablunden@mira.net>; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> >>>>>> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 8:51 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Andy
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I believe the reason we are cautious about brain research is it
> >>>>>> usually
> >>>>>> implies "biology" as foundational to being human.  The
> >>>>>> reason I mention
> >>>>>> Fonagy and others exploring the foundational premises of infant
> >>>>>> development
> >>>>>> is they are starting from intersubjectivity as prior to
> >>>>>> subjectivity and it
> >>>>>> is only within relational contexts that a sense of subjectivity
> >>>>>> arises or
> >>>>>> emerges. They are using brain research to support this
> >>>>>> relational paradigm.
> >>>>>> Larry
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> >>>>>> Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009 7:28 pm
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> >>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>  Larry,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In my first forrays into this discussion on emotion, I found
> >>>>>>> myself introducing talk of physiological observations in a
> >>>>>>> way I would never have thought of doing in relation to
> >>>>>>> cognition. After reading about the 300 years of reflections
> >>>>>>> on the physiology of emotion in Vygotsky's article, I was
> >>>>>>> left asking myself: why? Why do I think it is important to
> >>>>>>> investigate the physiology of emotion, while I hold such a
> >>>>>>> low opinion of the place of physiological investigations in
> >>>>>>> understanding the normal process of cognition.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Consciousness is the outcome of the intersection of two
> >>>>>>> objective processes: human physiology and human behaviour.
> >>>>>>> This is equally true of both emotion and cognition.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> While the marketing, military and medial industries are
> >>>>>>> spending billions of dollars on neurological investigations,
> >>>>>>> I would think that CHAT people would be interested in
> >>>>>>> questions like the role of emotion in learning, behaviour,
> >>>>>>> addicition, the formation of social bonds, and so on,
> >>>>>>> investigating such questions with dual stimulation type
> >>>>>>> experiments, with artifacts that are more or less affect-laden.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Andy
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Larry Purss wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Mike
> >>>>>>>> Your comment that this leaves us only at the starting gate of
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> understanding how bodies can be "written on"  points to the
> >>>>>>> research and reflection on the relation of changes in the brain
> >>>>>>> mediated by culture.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> One area of research that is exploring how the brain is
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> changed via mediation is intersubjective infant developmental
> >>>>>>> studies that are mapping physiological changes in one person's
> >>>>>>> brain that "mirrors" similar  physiological brain
> >>>>>>> changes  being generated during the activity of the
> >>>>>>> other  person.  Fonagy is doing research in this area
> >>>>>>> and has written a detailed summary of the research in this area.
> >>>>>>> His term for this intersubjective process is "mentalization".
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Larry
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>> From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009 12:19 pm
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> >>>>>>>> To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>  I do not have all this sorted out by a long shot, but my own
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> way
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> of thinking
> >>>>>>>>> about the issue is that humans are hybrids, really complex
> >>>>>>>>> one's. Their
> >>>>>>>>> brains have LITERALLY been shaped by prior genrations of
> >>>>>>>>> mediation of
> >>>>>>>>> activity through material artifacts, their brains (and often
> >>>>>>>>> other parts of
> >>>>>>>>> the bodies) cannot operate normally without inclusion of
> >>>>>>>>> artifacts, they can
> >>>>>>>>> be "written on" as jay points out.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The problem is that this leaves us only at the starting gate
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> furtherdevelopment of this point of view. I found that
> >>>>>>>>> experimental study I sent
> >>>>>>>>> around sort of interest in this regard, even though it
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> provides
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> such sketchy
> >>>>>>>>> detail and assumes so much about its cultural content and
> >>>>>>>>> organization. The
> >>>>>>>>> developmental implications, which in our current discussion
> >>>>>>>>> would mean, the
> >>>>>>>>> organization of hybridity during ontogeny, which in turn has
> >>>>>>>>> implicationsfor the cognition/emotion
> >>>>>>>>> discussion.
> >>>>>>>>> mike
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Jay Lemke
> >>>>>>>>> <jaylemke@umich.edu> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>  One of the ways I have found useful to think about the body
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> relation to
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> semiotic mediation is to see the body as, among other
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> things,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> a semiotic
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> artifact.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> What I mean by semiotic artifact is a material object or
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> substrate that can
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> be written on and read from, much like a printed page or an
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> architectural> drawing. Written on, in the general semiotic
> >>>>>>>>> sense, not necessarily in
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> words, but in signs of some kind: meaningful features that
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> can
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> be "read" or
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> made sense of by people (or nonhumans, but that's another
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> story) in that our
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> meaning-mediated world, and our actions that respond to
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> that world
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> (including by trying to change or re-create it or just
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> imagine
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> it in some
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> new way), are affected by our encounter with the features of
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> the semiotic
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> object, according to some community interpretive practices,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> with our own
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> individual variations on them.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> At a very obvious level, bodies can be dressed up in signs:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> hair styles,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> tans, cosmetics. And this can be taken to a more
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "artifactual"
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> form with
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> dress, or a more physiological form with, say, body-
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> building.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> From tattoos
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> to ripped abs is a small shift when we are thinking about
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> body as a
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> writable/readable object. If we want to get still more
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> physiological, and
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> think not only about reading other people's bodies, but
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> reading our own,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> then the proprioceptive feelings we sense within out bodies
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> can be
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> considered signs as well, whether exhilaration or nausea,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> strength or
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> weakness, etc. The meaning of these feelings is certainly
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> culturally>>> mediated. They are physiological phenomena, but
> >>>>>>> they are also
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> meaningful> cultural phenomena, with value judgements
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> attached,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> with intertexts in
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> literature, etc.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> And we can deliberately write to our most physiological
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> states, e.g. with
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> drugs, to produce feelings that have cultural meanings and
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> values for us,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> whether of calm or elation, energy or hallucination. And to
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> considerable> extent, our modifications of our body
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> physiology
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> can be "read" by others,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> just as can our made physiques, tattoos, or hair styles.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> So I would say that the body mediates our sense of the world
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> and ourselves
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> and other people in at least two ways: directly through
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> physiology, as with
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> hormonal responses, sensory modalities of perception, bodily
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> affordances and
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> dis-affordances ("handicaps" for example), etc. AND also in
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> these other,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> clearly semiotic and cultural ways, as a semiotic artifact,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> well as with
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> the cultural overlays of meaning that lie over and color the
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> meanings and
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> responses to all the direct physiological mediations.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I do not, however, know what being wooden on a rainy day
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> feels
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> like to a
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> chair.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> JAY.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Jay Lemke
> >>>>>>>>>> Professor (Adjunct, 2009-2010)
> >>>>>>>>>> Educational Studies
> >>>>>>>>>> University of Michigan
> >>>>>>>>>> Ann Arbor, MI 48109
> >>>>>>>>>> www.umich.edu/~jaylemke <http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke> <
> http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke> <
> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke> <
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke> <
> >>>
> >>>> http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Visiting Scholar
> >>>>>>>>>> Laboratory for Comparative Human Communication
> >>>>>>>>>> University of California -- San Diego
> >>>>>>>>>> La Jolla, CA
> >>>>>>>>>> USA 92093
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Dec 7, 2009, at 4:14 AM, Mabel Encinas wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>  Ok. You have a point. Then, lets start thinking from an
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> embodied approach
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> :)
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Let's accept that the body is an artifact. What is then the
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> difference>> between a chair and the body. Both are yes,
> >>>>>>>>> "products of human art", as you
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> express it. However, only in the process (practice) there
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> seem to be a
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> difference. Both are material and ideal (the body is not
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> separated from the
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> mind; the chair, this one here that I feel is made of cloth
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> and a cushioned
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> material, plastic, metal, and involves the ideal that a
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> designer and workers
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> in a factory transformed so people could seat on). What is
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> the difference?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Mabel
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 22:53:40 +1100
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> From: ablunden@mira.net
> >>>>>>>>>>>> To: liliamabel@hotmail.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Well, the body is the body is the body. The reason the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> question arises for me is when we make generalisations in
> >>>>>>>>>>>> which things like person, artefact, consciousness, concept,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> action, and so on, figure, where does the body fit in? My
> >>>>>>>>>>>> response was that even though it is obviously unique in many
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ways, it falls into the same category as artefacts.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> My questions to you are: what harm is done? why is anything
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ignored? And, what is the body if it is not a material
> >>>>>>>>>>>> product of human art, used by human beings?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Andy
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Mabel Encinas wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>  Is this way being fruitful? That is why I do not like to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> consider the
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> body as an artifact. Did not cognitive pscyhology do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> (Bruner, Acts
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> of Meaning). Then intentions and all the teleological
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> aspects are so
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> much ignored...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mabel
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 20:21:09 +1100
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: ablunden@mira.net
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: liliamabel@hotmail.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure. But the body has been constructed like a living
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine - the various artefacts that you use
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> (especially but
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> not only language and images) are "internalized" in some
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> way. So one (external) artefact is replaced by another
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (internal) artefact. Yes?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andy
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mabel Encinas wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>  However, sometimes practices do not involve other artefact
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the body (some practices are directed to the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> body),
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> and that was
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> why I was talking about the limit of thinking about the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> body as
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> artefact... is that a limit? That is why I mentioned
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> body as "the
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> raw material". I was thinking for example practices
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> linked to
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> meditation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the like, for example, among many others.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mabel
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>  --------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ------------
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Keep your friends updated— even when you’re not signed in.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> it-in-action/social-network-
> >>>>>>>>> basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-xm:SI_SB_5:092010
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----------
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> _________________________________________________________________>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>  Windows Live Hotmail: Your friends can get your Facebook
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> updates, right
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> from Hotmail®.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>  http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> it-in-action/social-network-
> >>>>>>>>> basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
>  xm:SI_SB_4:092009_______________________________________________>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> xmca
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> mailing list
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> xmca@weber.ucsd.edu
> >>>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>  _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>> xmca mailing list
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> >>>>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>>>> http://dss.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/xmca
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -------
> >>>>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> >>>>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
> >>>>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
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