Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts

[Larry Purss <lpurss@shaw.ca>]

Mike
I really appreciate these articles and the process of serendipity once more opens up new "spaces'" to explore.  I was just settling down to read Martin Buber's analysis of the construct BETWEENNESS and had a book by Robert Nisbett discussing Vico's perspective on the  notion of historical "developmentalism" and "progress" I was thinking of reading. Then you posted the neuroscience article on bottom up and top down processes and my intentions on where to go next became wobbly and topsy-turvy (sp?)  
However it certainly leaves me wondering and curious.
 
I will post a thought to the neuroscience post but I just want to mention that Fonagy, and Gergely and Target are working in the spaces of BETWEENNESS  (the hyphen in the "I -other" dialectic) that seems to be such a fertile place to stand.
 
Mike,
I would appreciate if  you could expand your way of contrasting Tomasello and Vygotsky with Trevarthan and PRIMARY intersubjectivity. (It may be in your article posted.)  This seems to be in my ZPD and seems to be central to my big question.
I have been reading various contrasting models of intersubjectivity from Hegel Habermas, to Buber, to Mead, to relational psychoanalysis (many contrasting views) such as Stern, Fonagy, to feminists such as Jessica Benjamin and they all speak to positioning ourselves in the PLACE or SPACE of BETWEENNESS (as an abstract ground) However the devil is in the details or particularity of  how we imagine (INTERPRET) THIS METAPHORICAL SPACE.  Winnicott's "holding environment" also is a metaphor for this space.
This metaphorical image of spaces for me is evocative because it allows us to ask the "ideal" ethical and moral question of how we facilitate, or guide,  the MUTUAL co-creation of these "OPENING SPACES" and promote the development of the "inclusive self" (see Jessica Benjamin's "The Bond's of Love")
Vygotsky and sociocultural theory seems to me to be the paradigm that speaks most clearly and practically to ways to open spaces in our schools.
 
Finally a quick comment on the constructs of "intentionallity" "anticipation" "evaluation" and "judgement". The metaphor of opening spaces must be always vigilant to mutuality in the relationally constructed open spaces.  When successful these open spaces lead to mutual recognition and emotional experiences of "vitality" and "engagement" in encounters and performances.  When we unintentionally communicate judgements or evaluations mutuality collapses into "complimentary" asymmetrical patterns which the cultural-critical discourses elaborate. (Buber's "I-it" objectifying stance which collapses "open spaces)
 
Thanks everyone on CHAT who leave me permanently confused (and fascinated)
 
Larry


----- Original Message -----
From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, December 13, 2009 7:21 am
Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>

> The book description came through, Larry. Attached is the most 
> recent Fonagy
> article i could find that appeared general. His work looks very 
> interesting,thanks. I have not read it yet, but that fact that 
> Gergeley is a co-author
> indicates that issues of intentionality are involved and I am 
> very curious
> to see if the effects you talk about are connected with changes 
> at 9months.
> First guess, it would fit with Tomasello and Vygotsky, but if it 
> fits with
> Trevarthan and primary intersubjectivity it will be a suprise. 
> We'll see.
> 
> A brief paper on this topic I wrote for an audience for whom the 
> idea that
> culture mediates human activity was a novelty, and that there is 
> a two way
> relation between "natural" and "cultural" is also attached.
> 
> thanks a lot for the pointer.
> mike
> 
> On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:10 PM, Larry Purss 
> <lpurss@shaw.ca> wrote:
> 
> > Vera
> > I sent an attachment through CHAT but I don't think it went through.
> > Fonagy and three other authors wrote the book "Affect regulation,
> > Mentalization, and the Development of the Self.
> > It is an extension of Bowlby's and Winnicott's approach (He 
> works at the
> > same Tavistock institute in London) and its interweaving with his
> > understanding of Hegel and intersubjectivity theory.
> > The summary of infant studies from a relational framework is 
> excellent.> Some of the "clinical" approaches in the second half 
> of the book may be
> > critqued.
> > Also I wonder how feminist scholars may critique the focus on 
> "mothers"?>
> > However the detail (though sometimes overwhelming) is systematically
> > presented and builds a coherent perspective on the centrality 
> of relational
> > processes to the development of subjectivity.
> > Larry
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Vera Steiner <vygotsky@unm.edu>
> > Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009 8:04 pm
> > Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> >
> > > Hi Larry,
> > > I would be interested in a link to Fonagy's recent publications.
> > > I am
> > > related to him and am doubly curious about his work.
> > > Thanks, Vera
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Larry Purss" <lpurss@shaw.ca>
> > > To: <ablunden@mira.net>; "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity"
> > > <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 8:51 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> > >
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > > I believe the reason we are cautious about brain research is it
> > > usually
> > > implies "biology" as foundational to being human.  The
> > > reason I mention
> > > Fonagy and others exploring the foundational premises of infant
> > > development
> > > is they are starting from intersubjectivity as prior to
> > > subjectivity and it
> > > is only within relational contexts that a sense of subjectivity
> > > arises or
> > > emerges. They are using brain research to support this
> > > relational paradigm.
> > > Larry
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Andy Blunden <ablunden@mira.net>
> > > Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009 7:28 pm
> > > Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > >
> > > > Larry,
> > > >
> > > > In my first forrays into this discussion on emotion, I found
> > > > myself introducing talk of physiological observations in a
> > > > way I would never have thought of doing in relation to
> > > > cognition. After reading about the 300 years of reflections
> > > > on the physiology of emotion in Vygotsky's article, I was
> > > > left asking myself: why? Why do I think it is important to
> > > > investigate the physiology of emotion, while I hold such a
> > > > low opinion of the place of physiological investigations in
> > > > understanding the normal process of cognition.
> > > >
> > > > Consciousness is the outcome of the intersection of two
> > > > objective processes: human physiology and human behaviour.
> > > > This is equally true of both emotion and cognition.
> > > >
> > > > While the marketing, military and medial industries are
> > > > spending billions of dollars on neurological investigations,
> > > > I would think that CHAT people would be interested in
> > > > questions like the role of emotion in learning, behaviour,
> > > > addicition, the formation of social bonds, and so on,
> > > > investigating such questions with dual stimulation type
> > > > experiments, with artifacts that are more or less affect-laden.
> > > >
> > > > Andy
> > > >
> > > > Larry Purss wrote:
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > Your comment that this leaves us only at the starting 
> gate of
> > > > understanding how bodies can be "written on"  points 
> to the
> > > > research and reflection on the relation of changes in the brain
> > > > mediated by culture.
> > > > > One area of research that is exploring how the brain is
> > > > changed via mediation is intersubjective infant developmental
> > > > studies that are mapping physiological changes in one person's
> > > > brain that "mirrors" similar  physiological brain
> > > > changes  being generated during the activity of the
> > > > other  person.  Fonagy is doing research in this area
> > > > and has written a detailed summary of the research in this area.
> > > > His term for this intersubjective process is "mentalization".
> > > > >
> > > > > Larry
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: mike cole <lchcmike@gmail.com>
> > > > > Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009 12:19 pm
> > > > > Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> > > > > To: "eXtended Mind, Culture, Activity" 
> <xmca@weber.ucsd.edu>> > > >
> > > > >> I do not have all this sorted out by a long shot, but 
> my own
> > > > way
> > > > >> of thinking
> > > > >> about the issue is that humans are hybrids, really complex
> > > > >> one's. Their
> > > > >> brains have LITERALLY been shaped by prior genrations of
> > > > >> mediation of
> > > > >> activity through material artifacts, their brains (and often
> > > > >> other parts of
> > > > >> the bodies) cannot operate normally without inclusion of
> > > > >> artifacts, they can
> > > > >> be "written on" as jay points out.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The problem is that this leaves us only at the starting gate
> > > > for
> > > > >> furtherdevelopment of this point of view. I found that
> > > > >> experimental study I sent
> > > > >> around sort of interest in this regard, even though it
> > > > provides
> > > > >> such sketchy
> > > > >> detail and assumes so much about its cultural content and
> > > > >> organization. The
> > > > >> developmental implications, which in our current discussion
> > > > >> would mean, the
> > > > >> organization of hybridity during ontogeny, which in 
> turn has
> > > > >> implicationsfor the cognition/emotion
> > > > >> discussion.
> > > > >> mike
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Jay Lemke
> > > > >> <jaylemke@umich.edu> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> One of the ways I have found useful to think about the body
> > > > in
> > > > >> relation to
> > > > >>> semiotic mediation is to see the body as, among other
> > > > things,
> > > > >> a semiotic
> > > > >>> artifact.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> What I mean by semiotic artifact is a material object or
> > > > >> substrate that can
> > > > >>> be written on and read from, much like a printed page 
> or an
> > > > >> architectural> drawing. Written on, in the general semiotic
> > > > >> sense, not necessarily in
> > > > >>> words, but in signs of some kind: meaningful features that
> > > > can
> > > > >> be "read" or
> > > > >>> made sense of by people (or nonhumans, but that's another
> > > > >> story) in that our
> > > > >>> meaning-mediated world, and our actions that respond to
> > > that world
> > > > >>> (including by trying to change or re-create it or just
> > > > imagine
> > > > >> it in some
> > > > >>> new way), are affected by our encounter with the 
> features of
> > > > >> the semiotic
> > > > >>> object, according to some community interpretive practices,
> > > > >> with our own
> > > > >>> individual variations on them.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> At a very obvious level, bodies can be dressed up in signs:
> > > > >> hair styles,
> > > > >>> tans, cosmetics. And this can be taken to a more
> > > > "artifactual"
> > > > >> form with
> > > > >>> dress, or a more physiological form with, say, body-
> > > > building.
> > > > >> From tattoos
> > > > >>> to ripped abs is a small shift when we are thinking about
> > > > the
> > > > >> body as a
> > > > >>> writable/readable object. If we want to get still more
> > > > >> physiological, and
> > > > >>> think not only about reading other people's bodies, but
> > > > >> reading our own,
> > > > >>> then the proprioceptive feelings we sense within out bodies
> > > > >> can be
> > > > >>> considered signs as well, whether exhilaration or nausea,
> > > > >> strength or
> > > > >>> weakness, etc. The meaning of these feelings is certainly
> > > > culturally>>> mediated. They are physiological phenomena, but
> > > > they are also
> > > > >> meaningful> cultural phenomena, with value judgements
> > > > attached,
> > > > >> with intertexts in
> > > > >>> literature, etc.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> And we can deliberately write to our most physiological
> > > > >> states, e.g. with
> > > > >>> drugs, to produce feelings that have cultural meanings and
> > > > >> values for us,
> > > > >>> whether of calm or elation, energy or hallucination. 
> And to
> > > > a
> > > > >> considerable> extent, our modifications of our body
> > > > physiology
> > > > >> can be "read" by others,
> > > > >>> just as can our made physiques, tattoos, or hair styles.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> So I would say that the body mediates our sense of the world
> > > > >> and ourselves
> > > > >>> and other people in at least two ways: directly through
> > > > >> physiology, as with
> > > > >>> hormonal responses, sensory modalities of perception, bodily
> > > > >> affordances and
> > > > >>> dis-affordances ("handicaps" for example), etc. AND 
> also in
> > > > >> these other,
> > > > >>> clearly semiotic and cultural ways, as a semiotic artifact,
> > > > as
> > > > >> well as with
> > > > >>> the cultural overlays of meaning that lie over and 
> color the
> > > > >> meanings and
> > > > >>> responses to all the direct physiological mediations.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I do not, however, know what being wooden on a rainy day
> > > > feels
> > > > >> like to a
> > > > >>> chair.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> JAY.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Jay Lemke
> > > > >>> Professor (Adjunct, 2009-2010)
> > > > >>> Educational Studies
> > > > >>> University of Michigan
> > > > >>> Ann Arbor, MI 48109
> > > > >>> www.umich.edu/~jaylemke 
> <http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke> <
> > http://www.umich.edu/%7Ejaylemke>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Visiting Scholar
> > > > >>> Laboratory for Comparative Human Communication
> > > > >>> University of California -- San Diego
> > > > >>> La Jolla, CA
> > > > >>> USA 92093
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Dec 7, 2009, at 4:14 AM, Mabel Encinas wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> Ok. You have a point. Then, lets start thinking from an
> > > > >> embodied approach
> > > > >>>> :)
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Let's accept that the body is an artifact. What is 
> then the
> > > > >> difference>> between a chair and the body. Both are yes,
> > > > >> "products of human art", as you
> > > > >>>> express it. However, only in the process (practice) there
> > > > >> seem to be a
> > > > >>>> difference. Both are material and ideal (the body is not
> > > > >> separated from the
> > > > >>>> mind; the chair, this one here that I feel is made of cloth
> > > > >> and a cushioned
> > > > >>>> material, plastic, metal, and involves the ideal that a
> > > > >> designer and workers
> > > > >>>> in a factory transformed so people could seat on). 
> What is
> > > > >> the difference?
> > > > >>>> Mabel
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>  Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 22:53:40 +1100
> > > > >>>>> From: ablunden@mira.net
> > > > >>>>> To: liliamabel@hotmail.com
> > > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Well, the body is the body is the body. The reason the
> > > > >>>>> question arises for me is when we make 
> generalisations in
> > > > >>>>> which things like person, artefact, consciousness, 
> concept,> > > >>>>> action, and so on, figure, where does the 
> body fit in? My
> > > > >>>>> response was that even though it is obviously unique 
> in many
> > > > >>>>> ways, it falls into the same category as artefacts.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> My questions to you are: what harm is done? why is 
> anything> > > >>>>> ignored? And, what is the body if it is not 
> a material
> > > > >>>>> product of human art, used by human beings?
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Andy
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Mabel Encinas wrote:
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Is this way being fruitful? That is why I do not 
> like to
> > > > >> consider the
> > > > >>>>>> body as an artifact. Did not cognitive pscyhology do
> > > > that?
> > > > >> (Bruner, Acts
> > > > >>>>>> of Meaning). Then intentions and all the teleological
> > > > >> aspects are so
> > > > >>>>>> much ignored...
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Mabel
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>  Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 20:21:09 +1100
> > > > >>>>>>> From: ablunden@mira.net
> > > > >>>>>>> To: liliamabel@hotmail.com
> > > > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [xmca] bodies and artifacts
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Sure. But the body has been constructed like a living
> > > > >>>>>>> machine - the various artefacts that you use
> > > (especially but
> > > > >>>>>>> not only language and images) are "internalized" 
> in some
> > > > >>>>>>> way. So one (external) artefact is replaced by another
> > > > >>>>>>> (internal) artefact. Yes?
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Andy
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Mabel Encinas wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> However, sometimes practices do not involve other 
> artefact> > > >>>>>>>> than the body (some practices are 
> directed to the
> > > > body),
> > > > >> and that was
> > > > >>>>>>>> why I was talking about the limit of thinking 
> about the
> > > > >> body as
> > > > >>>>>>>> artefact... is that a limit? That is why I mentioned
> > > > the
> > > > >> body as "the
> > > > >>>>>>>> raw material". I was thinking for example practices
> > > > >> linked to
> > > > >>>>>>> meditation
> > > > >>>>>>> and the like, for example, among many others.
> > > > >>>>>>>> Mabel
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > > --
> > > > --
> > > > >> ------------
> > > > >>>>>> Keep your friends updated— even when you’re not 
> signed in.
> > > > >>>>>> <
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > 
> http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-
> > > > >> it-in-action/social-network-
> > > > >> basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-
> xm:SI_SB_5:092010> > > >>>>> --
> > > > >>>>> -----------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > > --
> > > > --
> > > > >> -----------
> > > > >>>>> Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> > > > >>>>> Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, 
> Meshcheryakov,> > > >>>>> Ilyenkov $20 ea
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > 
> _________________________________________________________________> >>>>
> > Windows Live Hotmail: Your friends can get your Facebook
> > > > >> updates, right
> > > > >>>> from Hotmail®.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > http://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/see-
> > > > >> it-in-action/social-network-
> > > > >> basics.aspx?ocid=PID23461::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-
> > > >
> > > 
> xm:SI_SB_4:092009_______________________________________________>>>> xmca
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> > > > --
> > > > -----------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > > --
> > > > -------
> > > > Andy Blunden http://www.erythrospress.com/
> > > > Classics in Activity Theory: Hegel, Leontyev, Meshcheryakov,
> > > > Ilyenkov $20 ea
> > > >
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